I say "no way" to the bail out!

[Oscar54]

I'd just like to say that Ameica is not a free market, it's a mixed market or economy with a trend towards socialism. Yes, a trend towards socialism that has been growing stronger over the past 65+ years or more. You can learn that in any economics class.

A free market has never been allowed to happen because someone always gets some sort of power over people, and gets their sticky little fingers into everyone's money and business. And people go along with it.

So when we're talking about today, it is almost a travesty to say \"in this free market\", \"free market conservatives\" when referencing the republicans of ANY time period, or anything else relating with the times we live in today with a \"free market\" unless describing how we don't have a free market. It would be more appropriate to say in todays \"mixed market\" or \"limited market\".

Oh and as a personal bailout plan, I'd recommend investing heavily in precious metals if you can afford it. If I had enough money to invest right now, I would.

Hi Dako:

When I say "Free Market Conservatives" I should qualify that I know they don't really believe in a free market as is taught in college economics classes..

These people believe in only the accumulation of money and power for themselves to the detriment of anyone or anything else.

 

[GodSpeedLuc]

Economics is not a science and does not hold to any rules when faced with the real world. Economics is at best an explanation of trends and patterns in a small fixed market with no interference. \\\\\"If Suzy does x then y will happen\\\\\" but what economics doesn't account for is people. Economics can't explain what will happen if Suzy becomes a stripper.

If tomorrow you could convince everyone in the world that the US market wasn't tanking guess what would happen? Despite all economic factors, despite all your trends, despite all the patterns to the contrary the market would rise. Propaganda has more market control than any other determining factor in our economy because economics are built on what economists 'think' PEOPLE will do. Take the basic law of supply and demand. Demand is a purely human factor and cannot ever be accurately predicted.

lol. wrong again mate. economics is a social science. seriously where did you attend (or currently) school? i dont think you should be making much contribution without some plausible credit because the claims you are making for the most part are incorrect. sorry but im not not even stating opinion or my own perspective, it's just facts supported by actual professionals in this matter.

 

[GodSpeedLuc]

for those who want proof of the credit crunch change, just take a look at the situation with automakers.

we need this "rescue" if credit is to be eventually restored.

and about this whole doomsday/armageddon thing, the realization came from a prophecy which has been fairly accurate in some of the world's major events. from this economic downfall starts a chain reaction affecting the world until the final date, "December 21, 2012"

 

[ms mrdr]

I got this as an email:

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.
> >
> > Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We
> Deserve It Dividend.
> >
> > To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide
> U.S. Citizens 18+.
> >
> > Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and
> child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..
> >
> > So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals
> $425,000.00.
> >
> > My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It
> Dividend.
> >
> > Of course, it would NOT be tax free.
> >
> > So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.
> >
> > Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.
> >
> > That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.
> >
> > But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.
> >
> > A husband and wife has $595,000.00.
> >
> > What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?
> >
> > Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
> >
> > Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
> >
> > Put away money for college - it'll be there
> >
> > Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
> >
> > Buy a new car - create jobs
> >
> > Invest in the market - capital drives growth
> >
> > Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
> >
> > Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else
> >
> >
> > Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks
> who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is
> cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.
> >
> > If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of
>
> > trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that
> is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.
> >
> >
> > If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every
> adult U S Citizen 18+!
> >
> > As for AIG - liquidate it.
> >
> > Sell off its parts.
> >
> > Let American General go back to being American General.
> >
> > Sell off the real estate.
> >
> > Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.
> >
> > Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.
> >
> > Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'
> >
> > But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!
> >
> > How do you spell Economic Boom?
> >
> > I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion
> >
> > We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in
> > Washington DC
> >
> > And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because
> $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.
> >
> > Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest.
> >
> > Kindest personal regards,
> >
> > Birk
> >
> > T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy & Citizen of the Republic
> >
> > PS: Feel free to pass this along to your pals as it's either good for
> a laugh or a tear or a very sobering thought on how to best use $85
> Billion!!
> >
> > --
> > When told the reason for Daylight Saving time the old Indian said...
> > 'Only a white man would believe that you could cut a foot off the top
> > of a blanket and sew it to the bottom of a blanket and have a longer
> blanket.'

 

[GodSpeedLuc]

does anyone read previous posts before actually posting anymore? lol. we've already established how silly of an idea that is. it's been going around pretty good tho despite it's content.

 

[mikebike]

yep the math STILL comes out to $425 per person

 

[nimzotech]

Alright boys and girls as of recently the term has been changed. We are no longer negotiating a "bail-out" but more politically correct a "rescue-package".
Now this makes apparantly more acceptable and necessary no?

Don't you love how the power of words can make the same thing more acceptable to the population at large.

 

[BranNwebster]

Senate says Yay now we will watch the House. I hope the House says no.


I think it's just going to be a weak band-aid and our economy will still get worse. I hope not. And the final tally will be closer to 850 billion.

At least we are not alone France seeks a 300 billion euro bail out. So welcome to the club our euro friends.


Why We Have a House and a Senate

 

[ms mrdr]

does anyone read previous posts before actually posting anymore? lol. we've already established how silly of an idea that is. it's been going around pretty good tho despite it's content.

Um no..most tends to be jiberish that I don't care about...

 

[necrotimus]

lol. wrong again mate. economics is a social science. seriously where did you attend (or currently) school? i dont think you should be making much contribution without some plausible credit because the claims you are making for the most part are incorrect. sorry but im not not even stating opinion or my own perspective, it's just facts supported by actual professionals in this matter.

God lord man!! you just proved my point exactly. It is a SOCIAL science. Why the hell do you think they call it a SOCIAL science? Because it is a "science" that tries, very inaccurately, to place rules on society. And since the professionals are split on what to do to fix the problem that usually means the facts, and I use the term very loosely, don't point to anything.

There is no intrinsic value to any commodity. I pose the age old question how much is food worth to a starving man, a man who has just eaten, and a dead man? Fair market value is the value enough people have agreeded upon. And since every company is out to make a profit you can't tell me there is no market collusion. The entire economic system is a farce and the only reason it works is because enough people believe in it.

If you change the way people believe and act then guess what... your SOCIAL science has failed.

One last time... if you convince enough people that the economy is fine then the economy will right itself simply because enough people believe it is fine. Still don't believe me... go find a bunch of five year olds and split them into two groups... tell one group if they each give you a dollar then when they grow up they will be rich... tell the other group if they give you a dollar then you will give them a quarter when they grow up... hmm I wonder which group will give you more dollars

welcome to social sceince

 

[Cuba]

Um no..most tends to be jiberish that I don't care about...

Take your calculator out and divide 85 billion by 200 million.

 

[oldtimer]

Did your friends acquire these mortgages before or after the failed bail out and massive decline in the global markets (AKA Monday)? Read line one of what I said. Potentially, yes. All signs are pointing to it and if we do nothing then it will most likely be catastrophic. The definition of \"good\" credit will change dramatically in this new climate. When you have a tenth of the lending power you did a few weeks ago how can you service everyone with \"good\" credit? Credit worthiness has no bearing when there is no credit to lend. That is what this is about.

2 of them settled within september. The third person JUST got past all the paperwork approval from the bank to sell a piece of property as a short sale. He will be going to settlement next week.

Is Credit not a leap of faith that someone will pay you? Someone will always be there to lend money out because they see an opportunity. They won't "extend a leap of faith" (credit) to someone they see as un-worthy.

 

[mxgolf]

I absolutly agree. The dam government is screwing us. All the politicians have there lifetime retirement and pension at more then when they are in office. They have nothing to loose. It's us standard folks that have to pay the bill. They should jail all the main corporate money men for the fiasco they have brought upon all us US citizens. Even Donald Trump is against this plan. The BS part of it is the pork they have added to the bill. Some 2300 extras to buy the senators and congress men. A bunch of crap. You shouldn't have gotten me started.

 

[Cuba]

2 of them settled within september. The third person JUST got past all the paperwork approval from the bank to sell a piece of property as a short sale. He will be going to settlement next week.

Is Credit not a leap of faith that someone will pay you? Someone will always be there to lend money out because they see an opportunity. They won't \"extend a leap of faith\" (credit) to someone they see as un-worthy.

Yes but the point is there isn't enough money to loan out. Sure "someone" will have money to loan you, but when most don't it starts the chain reaction and those that do will enjoy huge interest rates because of the scarcity. I'm meeting with a local bank today about mortgages, apparently they haven't been effected yet and are currently operating normally. Your friends had great timing!

 

[Cuba]

They should jail all the main corporate money men for the fiasco they have brought upon all us US citizens.

Really? Since they haven't committed any crimes I find that opinion strange. This isn't an issue of theft, it's an issue of very poor forsight on the eventual outcome of too much loose credit. If people had been able to meet their commitments and not default on their mortgages we would be fine. The problem is that there wasn't nearly enough of a cushion, when banks can't support the losses from defaults it raises the necessary amount of interest on the remaining loans. When you raise the rates it causes further defaults, chain reaction. These people aren't criminals, and they are the ones losing out on this more than anyone. Had there been better regulation on the amount of leverage these banks could have it would have decreased the amount of available credit and slowed the economy- not a popular move for an elected official.

What gets me is the gulibility of the buyers. When has a low introductory rate ever been sustainable? When you get a credit card with a low introductory rate do you assume that that rate will actually go down when it is readjusted? Would you believe it if the guy trying to sell you on it says it'll be fine? Common sense where were you on this one? It was just as much the greed of the home buyers as anyone else. Just for future reference to all home buyers- if you can't afford it at a 30 year fixed rate, you can't afford it.

 

[Cuba]

Let's do the numbers on the House re-vote - Capitol Hill - MSNBC.com

This is a decent article on the subject. It touches on the fact that credit worthy businesses are being told that there loans will not be renewed. In effect the bank is telling the business that they believe in them, but have no money available to lend. Businesses close. People get fired. Car sales have plummeted because it has become so difficult to get car loans- there isn't any money to loan out. What do manufacturers do when sales drop? Close plants and lay off tens of thousands of middle class american workers. Read the article.

 

[Unseen]

I'm not American but very curious about the outcome of the new vote.

This sounds intersting, this guy is saying the bail out is not solely for American bad debts:
The TRUTH About The Bailout - The Market Ticker

I do know one thing, this whole financial disaster stinks. I've been reading predictions of this situation on different forums for years. So surely our world leaders must also have known and it looks like they did precisely nothing about it.

 

[Scorphonic]

If the USA members of this site have not contacted their Congressmen or Sentors regarding the current crisis please do so now, it is critical that they hear from everyone.

I personally have contacted mine and told them \"NO BAILOUT\" for these bums who collectively paid themselves Billions of $'s and now have their hands out to us.

One way or the other the government is going to end up with these financial institutions and so it might as well get them for free after they go belly up.

If we are going to spend $700 billion lets spend it on us in the form of roads & bridges, schools, water & sewer plants, electric grid and other projects that will create jobs here.

I'm not american but i'm certainly with you. Unfortunately the world is reliant on a good american economy (which will soon change I suspect) but for now...anything that lets these rich spongers get away with fiddling with your money and not having to pay for damages then they can stick it!

 

[urbanj]

Really? Since they haven't committed any crimes I find that opinion strange. This isn't an issue of theft, it's an issue of very poor forsight on the eventual outcome of too much loose credit. If people had been able to meet their commitments and not default on their mortgages we would be fine. The problem is that there wasn't nearly enough of a cushion, when banks can't support the losses from defaults it raises the necessary amount of interest on the remaining loans. When you raise the rates it causes further defaults, chain reaction. These people aren't criminals, and they are the ones losing out on this more than anyone. Had there been better regulation on the amount of leverage these banks could have it would have decreased the amount of available credit and slowed the economy- not a popular move for an elected official.

What gets me is the gulibility of the buyers. When has a low introductory rate ever been sustainable? When you get a credit card with a low introductory rate do you assume that that rate will actually go down when it is readjusted? Would you believe it if the guy trying to sell you on it says it'll be fine? Common sense where were you on this one? It was just as much the greed of the home buyers as anyone else. Just for future reference to all home buyers- if you can't afford it at a 30 year fixed rate, you can't afford it.

they have committed a crime. its called fiduciary duty. a director owes a fiduciary duty to the corporation to look out for the best interests of the company. with a publically traded corporation that would mean the shareholders (owners) as well. Now what these men did they did for themselves. they knew what they were doing was in the short term which was making them very rich. yes their stocks went up and the shareholders were happy, making the directors of these companies very rich. BUT they did this knowing the consequences years in advance. so really they were not looking out for the benefit of the corporation when they knew their actions would be the demise of the financial industy. And who is out of the money now? the shareholders and the corporation. which then flows down to the consumer. not the directors that already have the money sitting in the bank.

 

[GodSpeedLuc]

God lord man!! you just proved my point exactly. It is a SOCIAL science. Why the hell do you think they call it a SOCIAL science? Because it is a \\"science\\" that tries, very inaccurately, to place rules on society. And since the professionals are split on what to do to fix the problem that usually means the facts, and I use the term very loosely, don't point to anything.

There is no intrinsic value to any commodity. I pose the age old question how much is food worth to a starving man, a man who has just eaten, and a dead man? Fair market value is the value enough people have agreeded upon. And since every company is out to make a profit you can't tell me there is no market collusion. The entire economic system is a farce and the only reason it works is because enough people believe in it.

If you change the way people believe and act then guess what... your SOCIAL science has failed.

One last time... if you convince enough people that the economy is fine then the economy will right itself simply because enough people believe it is fine. Still don't believe me... go find a bunch of five year olds and split them into two groups... tell one group if they each give you a dollar then when they grow up they will be rich... tell the other group if they give you a dollar then you will give them a quarter when they grow up... hmm I wonder which group will give you more dollars

welcome to social sceince

well thats true mate. i agree with you exactly in the fact that the economy strives on the "faith", so to speak, of those who are a part of it and believe in it. and although we do primarily determine the values of our economy, i was only pointing out the fact that scarcity helps us to determine those values. not necessarily making the value itself because after all we make up our own economy.

in light of what you have also pointed out, it is indeed possible to fix our own economy without any outside intervention. however, it is just very highly unlikely due to the simple fact that our economy stretches way too big to actually band together and work something out ourselves. it could only be some sort of a miracle for this immense population (all obviously with different perspectives) in our economy. so much so that it's just unrealistic.

im glad that this rescue plan is being severely reviewed and considered so many times over and over again because it better well be damn near perfection of a design to put everyone back into the trust and faith in our economy. because that's when it'll be benefiting everyone. it's the media that's misleading people to panic mode and thus forcing this plan or some sort of action to pass already. i say no to that because acting too quickly tends to make things worse and not to mention the fact that this just cannot allow to get any worse