HID and you

[rsw81]

You guys really need to do your research. I suggest going to the forums at HIDPlanet and reading up: HiDPlanet.com

You cannot properly aim a halogen headlight that has an HID kit installed into it. You may think you've resolved the glare by \"aiming\" it, but what you've done is just made the already weak output from the HID kit even worse.

Now, I didn't post this response just to start a fire, but I feel like I've got to step in and say something when people are spreading inaccurate information on forums.

Everyone in this discussion already knows that the proper way to do HID is with a projector style headlight, not a reflective housing. On that note, not all reflectors are created equal and some will accomodate an HID better than others. The H7 side of the bike actually does a decent job with the HID conversion. The H4 side however does not and that is the case we are discussing here. After installation (before my projector retrofit), I did a light dispersement assessment against a flat wall to see where I was reflecting light (looking for hot-spots, glare, etc.). The H7 had a similar light pattern as the halogen bulbs and needed very little aiming. In fact, the halogens may have been mis-aimed in the first place since I never checked them. The rule of thumb is to be 25-30ft from the wall. Measure the height of the headlight. Aim the highest point of light on the wall 2 inches below the height of the headlight. So if the headlight is physically 36 inches from the ground, put the light beam 34 inches from the ground. In doing this, you are preventing the blinding of on-coming traffic and the rear view mirrors of those in front of you.

In summary, no body is arguing that our headlights were not designed for HIDs. We know that. What we are saying is that some of us having put them into our bikes with positive results. By that I mean, better road visibility, more noticed by surrounding cars for safety sake, and frankly pull less current than a halogen to allow for more accessories on the bike (ie: heated vests or grips).

BTW, welcome to the forum. I noticed this is your first post.

 

[skizot]

Everyone in this discussion already knows that the proper way to do HID is with a projector style headlight, not a reflective housing. On that note, not all reflectors are created equal and some will accomodate an HID better than others. The H7 side of the bike actually does a decent job with the HID conversion. The H4 side however does not and that is the case we are discussing here. After installation (before my projector retrofit), I did a light dispersement assessment against a flat wall to see where I was reflecting light (looking for hot-spots, glare, etc.). The H7 had a similar light pattern as the halogen bulbs and needed very little aiming. In fact, the halogens may have been mis-aimed in the first place since I never checked them. The rule of thumb is to be 25-30ft from the wall. Measure the height of the headlight. Aim the highest point of light on the wall 2 inches below the height of the headlight. So if the headlight is physically 36 inches from the ground, put the light beam 34 inches from the ground. In doing this, you are preventing the blinding of on-coming traffic and the rear view mirrors of those in front of you.

Yes, some halogen reflectors may be closer than others to the focal point of HID (bulb depth, arc vs. filament, etc. are just some reasons why they won't be). However, they're not going to be close enough to eliminate glare. There is a lot of engineering that goes into the optics of headlights. Glare is defined as uncontrollable light - meaning you can't eliminate it by aiming the headlights differently. And yes, I know how to aim headlights. I would be very interested in wall pictures of your light dispersion test, as I'm pretty sure there was plenty of light above the 36" height of your headlight housing. If there is, you are putting off glare to oncoming traffic.

In summary, no body is arguing that our headlights were not designed for HIDs. We know that. What we are saying is that some of us having put them into our bikes with positive results. By that I mean, better road visibility, more noticed by surrounding cars for safety sake, and frankly pull less current than a halogen to allow for more accessories on the bike (ie: heated vests or grips).

Yes, the results may be positive for you, but you must also be considerate of other drivers as well. Sticking an HID kit into your halogen reflectors may be an easy way to improve your lighting, but you will be blinding oncoming traffic. There are plenty of cheap OEM projectors that can be used for a retrofit, and even the poorest performers still beat an HID kit hands-down.

BTW, welcome to the forum. I noticed this is your first post.

Thanks. I came here because that picture on the first page is of my LS/LS430 retrofit.

 

[rsw81]

Yes, some halogen reflectors may be closer than others to the focal point of HID (bulb depth, arc vs. filament, etc. are just some reasons why they won't be). However, they're not going to be close enough to eliminate glare. There is a lot of engineering that goes into the optics of headlights. Glare is defined as uncontrollable light - meaning you can't eliminate it by aiming the headlights differently. And yes, I know how to aim headlights. I would be very interested in wall pictures of your light dispersion test, as I'm pretty sure there was plenty of light above the 36\" height of your headlight housing. If there is, you are putting off glare to oncoming traffic.

I was a physics professor before I went to medical school, I understand optics better than most people on this forum. No need to explain to me what glare is and what causes it. No one here is arguing that typically reflective units with HID conversions will create glare. What we are discussing is that the FZ6 reflective doesn't create TOO much glare, and definitely not any more than the stock halogen bulb. The placement of the H7 bulb is actually pretty close to the focal point of the reflector, so no adjustment there. The H4 bulb however was off by approximately 3mm. To fix this problem, creating a small spacer to displace the bulb backward that distance fixed the problem on my bike before converting to projectors. I'll see if I can find the light distribution patterns of them before I did the projector conversion, not sure how many I took of it though.

Yes, the results may be positive for you, but you must also be considerate of other drivers as well. Sticking an HID kit into your halogen reflectors may be an easy way to improve your lighting, but you will be blinding oncoming traffic. There are plenty of cheap OEM projectors that can be used for a retrofit, and even the poorest performers still beat an HID kit hands-down.

Once again, no one is disputing that projectors would be better than reflectors. This is common knowledge around here. And I was being considerate of other drivers by aiming the headlights appropriately such that I wouldn't be blinding them. If I didn't care, I'd keep them pointed level to give me the best distance illumination of the road.

Thanks. I came here because that picture on the first page is of my LS/LS430 retrofit.

More details on what you did would be appreciated. I'm sure others on this forum would like to read about it. I'm assuming that you are saying that you used Lexus LS430 projectors for a retrofit job on another car/motorcycle?

 

[rsw81]

Pictures of before projectors and after, both using HIDs

#1 is reflective housings with HID, #2 is projectors with HID
Obviously the projectors make better use of the light and have a cleaner cutoff level, but notice there is not really any light above a certain level of the reflective housing picture either.:thumbup:

 

[rsw81]

Next set is of pictures of the road in front my bike, all taken same time of day in the exact same location. First picture is the stock halogens. Second is the stock reflectors with HIDs. Third is HIDs with projectors. Notice the speed bump in the distance for reference on how far the light is being thrown in front of the bike. All were aimed properly using the methods described above.

 

[skizot]

Once again, no one is disputing that projectors would be better than reflectors. This is common knowledge around here. And I was being considerate of other drivers by aiming the headlights appropriately such that I wouldn't be blinding them. If I didn't care, I'd keep them pointed level to give me the best distance illumination of the road.

From your pictures it looks like you've aimed them so far down that you've greatly reduced the distance of light; it doesn't look like your lights would shine much more than 10 feet in front of you, which is very unsafe. If you've got to aim them down that far, then what's the point, as you're actually reducing your visibility over halogen.

More details on what you did would be appreciated. I'm sure others on this forum would like to read about it. I'm assuming that you are saying that you used Lexus LS430 projectors for a retrofit job on another car/motorcycle?

Yes, I retro'ed a pair of Lexus LS430 projectors into my Lincoln LS. Here is a link to the project, but beware, there are quite a few pictures.

Next set is of pictures of the road in front my bike, all taken same time of day in the exact same location. First picture is the stock halogens. Second is the stock reflectors with HIDs. Third is HIDs with projectors. Notice the speed bump in the distance for reference on how far the light is being thrown in front of the bike. All were aimed properly using the methods described above.

Your setup with HID in stock reflectors was not aimed according to the 2-2.5" drop / 25 feet rule. You can tell that by your first two pictures comparing HID in reflectors vs. HID projectors on the wall. You've aimed them much, much lower than 2-2.5" / 25 feet. That's good for other drivers, but as mentioned above, very, very bad for your visibility.

Your pictures would show a better comparison if they were taken with the white balance, shutter speed, and aperture all set to manual (full manual mode) and all at the same settings.

I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing here, I'm just saying that if you're going to spend any money on upgrading your lighting, you might as well do a retrofit.

 

[Damnitsjeff]

I retract my statement..............

 

[slandis]

I don't think this has much to do with politics, but more centered around consideration for more than just you and your own visibility.

This issue isn't even HID specific, as aftermarket halogen housings (reflector and projector alike) sometimes are of poor quality, or are unable to be aimed correctly at all. Daniel Stern and his arguments/opinions/facts have been around for years (the same site was cited during many a HID rebasing arguments when I was involved with the BMW car scene.) He's got valid points, and many have been mentioned here.

I commute often at night (3 to 5 times a week) for decent stretches of long highway and county roads, and I can tell you that I can spot poorly installed/retrofitted HID and halogen setups coming from a long ways away. They all have one thing in common; they make my ride worse for as long as they're in front of me. This is because they're casting all sorts of light where it shouldn't be.

So in short... it's not at all about personal preference. Your preferences are fine until they impair my ability to be safe.

 

[rsw81]

Your setup with HID in stock reflectors was not aimed according to the 2-2.5\" drop / 25 feet rule. You can tell that by your first two pictures comparing HID in reflectors vs. HID projectors on the wall. You've aimed them much, much lower than 2-2.5\" / 25 feet. That's good for other drivers, but as mentioned above, very, very bad for your visibility.

Your pictures would show a better comparison if they were taken with the white balance, shutter speed, and aperture all set to manual (full manual mode) and all at the same settings.

Point of information, those pictures are aimed properly at the 2'/25ft rule. However, the picture was not taken at 25ft from the wall and I never claimed it was. It was taken maybe 10 feet from the wall. The pictures make not do it justice, but those HIDs in the OEM reflectors easily put twice the light on the road as the stock halogens and just as far in front of the bike. Perhaps you are right though, I needed to adjust the camera better to be more consistent.:thumbup:

I think the reason people don't do a retrofit is that it is a lot of work for someone who doesn't know what they are doing and are not mechanically inclined. Personally, I had never done a retrofit before, but I also know my way around a tool bench pretty well and can figure it out. I don't think the general public should even consider doing this themselves.

 

[abacall]

Not sure if everyone knows about CustomLightz - The HID Retrofit Specialist.
Well priced and done for you! Not to mention all the color options.
I personally woudn't do HID without the projector. Too much light on the foreground. I just wanted to start a good debate (which it seem is happening) and get people informed..

 

[skizot]

Point of information, those pictures are aimed properly at the 2'/25ft rule. However, the picture was not taken at 25ft from the wall and I never claimed it was. It was taken maybe 10 feet from the wall. The pictures make not do it justice, but those HIDs in the OEM reflectors easily put twice the light on the road as the stock halogens and just as far in front of the bike. Perhaps you are right though, I needed to adjust the camera better to be more consistent.:thumbup:.

LOL. Actually, no, they are not. Either they are aimed correctly, and the projector retrofit in the picture on the right is not, or they are not, and the projector retrofit in the picture on the right is. It cannot be both. The reason I know this, is because you are almost the exact distance away from the wall in both of the pictures below, yet the HID in stock reflector picture shows the light aimed much, much lower than the HID projector picture. And no, I never said you were 25 feet away from the wall. And yeah, it's definitely hard to get good comparison shots if you have a point-and-shoot. You pretty much need a DSLR to get those type of shots.

Your pictures:

HID kit in stock reflector housing:

HID Projectors:

I commute often at night (3 to 5 times a week) for decent stretches of long highway and county roads, and I can tell you that I can spot poorly installed/retrofitted HID and halogen setups coming from a long ways away. They all have one thing in common; they make my ride worse for as long as they're in front of me. This is because they're casting all sorts of light where it shouldn't be.

I honestly doubt many of them you're seeing are "poorly installed/retrofitted HID" setups. Installing an HID kit into your stock halogen reflectors is not a retrofit. A projector retrofit is just that, a custom retrofit of HID projectors into a car's headlight housings that originally came with halogen reflectors (or sometimes halogen projectors). There aren't many people who are going to take the time and money to retrofit a pair of HID projectors into their vehicle and then not aim them correctly. I'm pretty sure what you meant is that there a lot of vehicles on the road that have HID kits installed into their stock halogen reflector housings, which cannot be aimed correctly and cause glare to oncoming traffic.

Also, maybe I'm not reading you correctly, but are you complaining about cars who have headlights that light up things on the left and right side of the road? If so, how is that a bad thing? Being able to see on the left and right of the road is a huge improvement in safety for nighttime driving. Just as an example, it can allow you to see deer on the side of the road long before you get right up to them and possibly have one of the jump out and hit you (same goes for people, etc.). That is why optical engineers have spent a lot of time designing HID projectors to have a wide beam pattern, and it's also why AFS (Adaptive Frontend-lighting Systems) were added to some vehicles that have projectors. Or, are you talking about the oncoming traffic throwing light up into your eyes (glare)?

But yes, I do agree with you that it is more about everyone's safety, and not just about the person upgrading their lighting. I do have one additional thing to say, and that's about Daniel Stern. His site is an excellent source of information, but keep one thing in mind. He sells nothing but halogen products, so obviously he is going to be biased against HID. He does make a few valid points in regards to HID though. One being the reduced CRI (Color Rendering Index) of HID. HID is in the mid 70s, and halogen is closer to 100, when it comes to CRI. This is especially a good point when people consider HID bulbs that are a higher Kelvin than OEM. OEM HID bulbs have a color temperature of 4300K, but many people think it's cool to get 6000K, 8000K, and even 10000K. Even with 6000K bulbs, the CRI has diminished quite a bit, and gets far worse the further up in color temperature you go. That's why it's best to stick to nothing but the OEM color temperature of 4100K-4300K.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index :

The CIE color rendering index (CRI), is a quantitative measure of the ability of a light source to reproduce the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source.

 

[skizot]

Ah, hell, it looks like I forgot to put the link in my post a few posts back. Anyways, here it is, my Lincoln LS / Lexus LS430 projector retrofit :

HID Retrofit - Lincoln LS / Lexus LS430 (56K death) Lincoln LS

 

[rsw81]

I see what you are saying about my wall shots. They look different because they are different. Different walls of my apartment, different distances from the wall, and the one that has the stock reflectors has a hill on that grass leading to the wall whereas the projector picture there is no hill to the building. This is why they look like they are at different heights. These were not the walls I used to aim them either, so don't go saying that this is why they are aimed differently. I used the side of a dumpster to aim them both and used the same markings on it to aim them.

Obviously you know I agree with you about the projectors versus reflectors, otherwise I wouldn't have done the retrofit myself. So I'm not trying to argue with you on that, just so we're clear.

 

[slandis]

I honestly doubt many of them you're seeing are \"poorly installed/retrofitted HID\" setups. Installing an HID kit into your stock halogen reflectors is not a retrofit. A projector retrofit is just that, a custom retrofit of HID projectors into a car's headlight housings that originally came with halogen reflectors (or sometimes halogen projectors). There aren't many people who are going to take the time and money to retrofit a pair of HID projectors into their vehicle and then not aim them correctly. I'm pretty sure what you meant is that there a lot of vehicles on the road that have HID kits installed into their stock halogen reflector housings, which cannot be aimed correctly and cause glare to oncoming traffic.

Also, maybe I'm not reading you correctly, but are you complaining about cars who have headlights that light up things on the left and right side of the road? If so, how is that a bad thing? Being able to see on the left and right of the road is a huge improvement in safety for nighttime driving. Just as an example, it can allow you to see deer on the side of the road long before you get right up to them and possibly have one of the jump out and hit you (same goes for people, etc.). That is why optical engineers have spent a lot of time designing HID projectors to have a wide beam pattern, and it's also why AFS (Adaptive Frontend-lighting Systems) were added to some vehicles that have projectors. Or, are you talking about the oncoming traffic throwing light up into your eyes (glare)?

But yes, I do agree with you that it is more about everyone's safety, and not just about the person upgrading their lighting. I do have one additional thing to say, and that's about Daniel Stern. His site is an excellent source of information, but keep one thing in mind. He sells nothing but halogen products, so obviously he is going to be biased against HID. He does make a few valid points in regards to HID though. One being the reduced CRI (Color Rendering Index) of HID. HID is in the mid 70s, and halogen is closer to 100, when it comes to CRI. This is especially a good point when people consider HID bulbs that are a higher Kelvin than OEM. OEM HID bulbs have a color temperature of 4300K, but many people think it's cool to get 6000K, 8000K, and even 10000K. Even with 6000K bulbs, the CRI has diminished quite a bit, and gets far worse the further up in color temperature you go. That's why it's best to stick to nothing but the OEM color temperature of 4100K-4300K.

From Color rendering index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

I totally agree that Stern is a good, though limited resource. And yes, hack-job HID retrofits are actually pretty common around my parts. Specifically in Japanese and European vehicles whose owners insist on mounting projectors in any way possible (sticky tape, velcro, etc), and thus making the units impossible to correctly aim. The other side I was really going for is the HID re-basing crowd who think they're getting the absolute real thing when they slap in their H4 10,000k bulbs and proceed to blind everybody just so they have those "wicked" purple-blue headlights! I guess it really is more about aiming correctly (though I would say that if you don't take the time to aim your lights after any modding, you've just completed a hack-job.)

Light on both sides of the road is great, but not if it's going to impair other drivers vision more than is necessary (ie, every car is blinding when you're close enough.) I shouldn't be blind through a whole sweeping turn because somebody didn't understand how to properly mod and aim their headlights, however.

 

[rsw81]

Ah, hell, it looks like I forgot to put the link in my post a few posts back. Anyways, here it is, my Lincoln LS / Lexus LS430 projector retrofit :

HID Retrofit - Lincoln LS / Lexus LS430 (56K death) Lincoln LS

Nice job, I am thinking of doing another retrofit on my Acura RSX-S with similar work. I'll likely use an S2000 or Infiniti FX35 projector instead though since the unit is smaller and will easier to fit into the small headlight in my car.

 

[skizot]

Nice job, I am thinking of doing another retrofit on my Acura RSX-S with similar work. I'll likely use an S2000 or Infiniti FX35 projector instead though since the unit is smaller and will easier to fit into the small headlight in my car.

Thanks! S2000 are top notch, and are right below LS430's on pretty much everyone's list. The only thing about the LS430 and S2000 is that those are single xenon projectors. So if you don't have separate high beams, they won't work (unless you don't care about high beams LOL, which I think will keep your car from passing inspection). The FX35 are bi-xenon and are a great projector with a clear lens swap (nothing like the LS430 or S2000 though). You might take a look at the Acura TL projectors as well.

I learned almost everything I know about HID from the HIDPlanet forums. That is a massive wealth of information on the topic, with lots of helpful people (just don't go asking about kits outside the Kit Forum ).

Light on both sides of the road is great, but not if it's going to impair other drivers vision more than is necessary (ie, every car is blinding when you're close enough.) I shouldn't be blind through a whole sweeping turn because somebody didn't understand how to properly mod and aim their headlights, however.

I assume you're still talking about "hack-job" retrofits here, as you're not going to be blinded by cars that come with HID projectors stock, or by someone who's done a retro and aimed (vertical, horizontal, and rotationally) them properly.

 

[rsw81]

Thanks! S2000 are top notch, and are right below LS430's on pretty much everyone's list. The only thing about the LS430 and S2000 is that those are single xenon projectors. So if you don't have separate high beams, they won't work (unless you don't care about high beams LOL, which I think will keep your car from passing inspection). The FX35 are bi-xenon and are a great projector with a clear lens swap (nothing like the LS430 or S2000 though). You might take a look at the Acura TL projectors as well.

My car has separate pods for high versus low, otherwise yes I'd go with the bixenon setup. Those are significantly more expensive though.

 

[skizot]

My car has separate pods for high versus low, otherwise yes I'd go with the bixenon setup. Those are significantly more expensive though.

Which are more expensive?

 

[slandis]

I assume you're still talking about \"hack-job\" retrofits here, as you're not going to be blinded by cars that come with HID projectors stock, or by someone who's done a retro and aimed (vertical, horizontal, and rotationally) them properly.

I don't believe I was ever saying anything bad about stock HID or properly done retrofits.

I'm going to do a high/low retrofit myself. But it will be done properly and aimed correctly when finished, so I don't go blinding everybody else on the road.

Awesome job on the LS. I always wanted an LS, just never came across one when I was buying my last car.

 

[rsw81]

Which are more expensive?

The bixenon's are typically more expensive than the non-bixenons. Although, having shopped some S2000 projectors, those things go for quite the pretty penny!