Body position, skill, traction (loss of), lean angle = vid to discuss

[Neal]

You guys have me convinced.

What the AMA racers taught me about interfacing with a bike that has electronics at California superbike school must be wrong.

I am going to my bike right now opening up the gas tank and adding in oil.

 

[FinalImpact]

It's true some riders say that having this technology is like cheating. Riders can absolutely benefit from ABS / Traction control / Lean angle sensors in some situations. However, depending on this technology to mask riders' lack of skills can lead to trouble.

Example: In one of the ERCs I coached, a Harley rider was tripping his ABS on each and every quick stop. Not a problem.. if his ABS never ever fails and if he never needs to brake while leaned over. He did the right thing by choosing to practice and improve his skills, but how many riders out there never bother?

Q? What feedback utility/notification does an HD offer the rider about "helping the rider" with assists? Did you notice? Tks - just curious.

Also, any input on the "lean angle" is that like a beeper that goes off?? Unless it knows the compressed hight of the suspension I'm not seeing the value ad here unless its super greedy goes off at kick stand angles...

 

[marke14]

Not to spoil the interesting back-and-forth, but since none of the local guys have chimed in I will.

This is part of Mulholland, a famous road for motorcylces and high-performance cars (and the "home stretch" for the folks who live up in the Santa Monica Mountains / Malibu Canyon area).

To put all of these crashes in that first video in perspective for you guys:

In the greater Los Angeles area, there are two "main" areas where all the motorbike riders seem to flock to. The first is Angeles Crest Highway, which runs in the San Gabriel mountains which are the east-west running mountains that form the northern border of the Los Angeles basin. ACH or Highway 2 as it is known, has a famous cafe way up in the mountains up there called Newcomb's Ranch, and on any given sunny day you'll see plenty of bikes up there, even on a random weekday (providing it's relatively warm and no snow/ice up there). On the weekends it's pretty insane especially during the summers. I'll see if I can locate a picture. I've seen a hundred bikes or more, easily, on a warm summer afternoon up there, and there are always at least as many bikes out running around on the various roads.

The other area is the Santa Monica Mountains and Malibu Canyon, including Mulholland which is where this video was filmed. I got my first canyon riding experience here because it is slightly closer to where we live as opposed to having to slog through the central Los Angeles traffic on my way to and from ACH. The famous motorcycle hangout up there is called The Rock Store and for whatever reason, it tends to attract a lot of the weekend warrior/douchey types, both of the cruiser/Harley crowd as well as the sporting crowd.

And, of course, like any canyon roads close to a major city, there are always the guys who are going to go out there and absolutely flog it - to hell with speed limits or consideration for others' safety (a-la-the Corvette crossing the double line, etc.).

Regarding the specific corner where you see all of these crashes, in my experience there are a few factors at play that you wouldn't know from looking at the video:

1) That corner is actually the last turn in a long succession of a section of road that is referred to locally as "The Snake" (See my attached image). People (I think) tend to think of it as "the grand finale" of the Snake and try to put a bit of flourish on it. Some people may be tired from the previous stretch which can be scary if you're not familiar with the road, and this can get people's heads out of the game for this big corner.

2) The majority of the crashes you see on the Snake are in that corner, right after people who have been traveling uphill through the Snake have come through some very technical turns, the last few of which are under trees and therefore shaded. I mention this only because from a sensory perspective, suddenly it's brighter than it was a few moments ago, and you have a little road to run on and gain speed going into that turn.

3) As you approach this turn (again going the uphill direction), you see what appears to be a wide-open, lefthand sweeping uphill turn. Some people get overanxious to get on the gas here; some people target fixate halfway through the turn. Other run it a tiny bit wide and instead of turning harder, stand it up and go into the dirt, while others overturn, hit that painted double yellow line and wash out the front tire. Other simply hit the brakes and tuck the front, or get on the gas too early/too aggressively.

4) This cannot be overstated enough - it is VERY well known locally that on any given day a) there are likely to be a crowd of people uphill from that spot (which you can see in the very last shot in the video, where the guy has a wobble and saves it) watching and frankly waiting for a spill, and b) the photographers will be up there. These things may contribute to some people getting self-conscious not keeping their wits about themselves, resulting in a small error which turns into a crash.

For my money, I like to ride everywhere *but* The Snake due to all the yahoos in cars and on bikes going way too fast, the sheer volume of yahoos, the dangerous nature of the road in terms of being able to predict (without a lot of local knowledge) the "sharpness" of the curves and camber (blind curves in other words), road debris which is very common up there (gravel from tiny rockslides mainly), and slow-moving traffic and the occasional animal/roadkill in the road. I have personally witnessed crashes just like you see in that video, in that turn.

See the image I've attached below. I've put a red box in the lower left hand part of the image, around the corner where the video is filmed. I've indicated the direction that the vast majority of those folks were traveling - uphill/West. I've also indicated where The Rock Store is located - where a lot of these guys who crashed were 10 minutes ago, telling each other testosterone-fuelled bullsh*t stories about how badass/fast/fearless they are. After they pick up the pieces and head back down, they will blame their equipment or debris or pretty much anything except rider error for their wreck.

https://goo.gl/maps/DrxJK

Please note: I am not a "speed limit/buzzkill" type of rider - though I generally attempt to adhere to the speed limit (and virtually always do in unfamilar territory) - I like to ride "fast" and have fun. But, I also have a STRONG AVERSION TO CRASHING and certainly to injury, hence my approach to riding - have fun, feel those turns, but live to ride another day.

Have fun/ride safe!

-Mark

p.s. here's a Google Map link to where we're talking about: https://goo.gl/maps/DrxJK

 

[Nelly]

Not to spoil the interesting back-and-forth, but since none of the local guys have chimed in I will.

This is part of Mulholland, a famous road for motorcylces and high-performance cars (and the "home stretch" for the folks who live up in the Santa Monica Mountains / Malibu Canyon area).

To put all of these crashes in that first video in perspective for you guys:

In the greater Los Angeles area, there are two "main" areas where all the motorbike riders seem to flock to. The first is Angeles Crest Highway, which runs in the San Gabriel mountains which are the east-west running mountains that form the northern border of the Los Angeles basin. ACH or Highway 2 as it is known, has a famous cafe way up in the mountains up there called Newcomb's Ranch, and on any given sunny day you'll see plenty of bikes up there, even on a random weekday (providing it's relatively warm and no snow/ice up there). On the weekends it's pretty insane especially during the summers. I'll see if I can locate a picture. I've seen a hundred bikes or more, easily, on a warm summer afternoon up there, and there are always at least as many bikes out running around on the various roads.

The other area is the Santa Monica Mountains and Malibu Canyon, including Mulholland which is where this video was filmed. I got my first canyon riding experience here because it is slightly closer to where we live as opposed to having to slog through the central Los Angeles traffic on my way to and from ACH. The famous motorcycle hangout up there is called The Rock Store and for whatever reason, it tends to attract a lot of the weekend warrior/douchey types, both of the cruiser/Harley crowd as well as the sporting crowd.

And, of course, like any canyon roads close to a major city, there are always the guys who are going to go out there and absolutely flog it - to hell with speed limits or consideration for others' safety (a-la-the Corvette crossing the double line, etc.).

Regarding the specific corner where you see all of these crashes, in my experience there are a few factors at play that you wouldn't know from looking at the video:

1) That corner is actually the last turn in a long succession of a section of road that is referred to locally as "The Snake" (See my attached image). People (I think) tend to think of it as "the grand finale" of the Snake and try to put a bit of flourish on it. Some people may be tired from the previous stretch which can be scary if you're not familiar with the road, and this can get people's heads out of the game for this big corner.

2) The majority of the crashes you see on the Snake are in that corner, right after people who have been traveling uphill through the Snake have come through some very technical turns, the last few of which are under trees and therefore shaded. I mention this only because from a sensory perspective, suddenly it's brighter than it was a few moments ago, and you have a little road to run on and gain speed going into that turn.

3) As you approach this turn (again going the uphill direction), you see what appears to be a wide-open, lefthand sweeping uphill turn. Some people get overanxious to get on the gas here; some people target fixate halfway through the turn. Other run it a tiny bit wide and instead of turning harder, stand it up and go into the dirt, while others overturn, hit that painted double yellow line and wash out the front tire. Other simply hit the brakes and tuck the front, or get on the gas too early/too aggressively.

4) This cannot be overstated enough - it is VERY well known locally that on any given day a) there are likely to be a crowd of people uphill from that spot (which you can see in the very last shot in the video, where the guy has a wobble and saves it) watching and frankly waiting for a spill, and b) the photographers will be up there. These things may contribute to some people getting self-conscious not keeping their wits about themselves, resulting in a small error which turns into a crash.

For my money, I like to ride everywhere *but* The Snake due to all the yahoos in cars and on bikes going way too fast, the sheer volume of yahoos, the dangerous nature of the road in terms of being able to predict (without a lot of local knowledge) the "sharpness" of the curves and camber (blind curves in other words), road debris which is very common up there (gravel from tiny rockslides mainly), and slow-moving traffic and the occasional animal/roadkill in the road. I have personally witnessed crashes just like you see in that video, in that turn.

See the image I've attached below. I've put a red box in the lower left hand part of the image, around the corner where the video is filmed. I've indicated the direction that the vast majority of those folks were traveling - uphill/West. I've also indicated where The Rock Store is located - where a lot of these guys who crashed were 10 minutes ago, telling each other testosterone-fuelled bullsh*t stories about how badass/fast/fearless they are. After they pick up the pieces and head back down, they will blame their equipment or debris or pretty much anything except rider error for their wreck.

https://goo.gl/maps/DrxJK

Please note: I am not a "speed limit/buzzkill" type of rider - though I generally attempt to adhere to the speed limit (and virtually always do in unfamilar territory) - I like to ride "fast" and have fun. But, I also have a STRONG AVERSION TO CRASHING and certainly to injury, hence my approach to riding - have fun, feel those turns, but live to ride another day.

Have fun/ride safe!

-Mark

p.s. here's a Google Map link to where we're talking about: https://goo.gl/maps/DrxJK

Thanks Mark, your insight and.local knowledge has given us the missing perspective to this corner.

Nelly


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Erci]

Thanks Mark, your insight and.local knowledge has given us the missing perspective to this corner.

Nelly


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

+1! Rep well earned :thumbup:

 

[FinalImpact]

+1! Rep well earned :thumbup:

Two up on Rep's!

Thanks Mark! :thumbup:

 

[Erci]

Q? What feedback utility/notification does an HD offer the rider about "helping the rider" with assists? Did you notice? Tks - just curious.

Also, any input on the "lean angle" is that like a beeper that goes off?? Unless it knows the compressed hight of the suspension I'm not seeing the value ad here unless its super greedy goes off at kick stand angles...

It was very easy to see HD rider's front wheel locking and unlocking in rapid succession. Literally every time he tried to stop quickly. It was also easy to see that he had no concept of progressively squeezing the brake, because the fork was going from fully extended (on the gas) to nearly fully compressed without progression.

The lean angle sensor is used for multiple reasons (and it varies from bike to bike). On some bikes, in conservative modes, it will cut the power by as much as 40%.. it will literally start feeding the power back in as the bike straightens up. Another application of lean angle sensor: disable ABS when the bike is leaned to a certain degree. This is the one that can get those riders who depend solely on technology in trouble. Someone who never learned how to apply brakes properly and uses them like an on/off switch... you see where I'm going with this, right?

Some people are set in their beliefs (right or wrong.. they're past the point of caring or listening). Luckily, majority of the folks here do believe that it is critical to learn to ride properly and not depend on latest technology to keep them out of trouble or make them look like they're good riders :thumbup:

 

[Neal]

Some people are set in their beliefs (right or wrong.. they're past the point of caring or listening). Luckily, majority of the folks here do believe that it is critical to learn to ride properly and not depend on latest technology to keep them out of trouble or make them look like they're good riders :thumbup:

False.

The silent majority is wise enough to reserve judgement on how to ride bikes built on the platform of ride by wire technology until after they actually have experience riding on such a revolutionary design.

Only a very few brazen individuals are offering up baseless opinions which are interesting from a physiological perspective but have no value otherwise.

 

[darius]

Not to spoil the interesting back-and-forth, but since none of the local guys have chimed in I will. <SNIP>

Great write up. Thanks.


BTW, someone on this thread is blatantly trolling.

 

[rsw81]

False.

The silent majority is wise enough to reserve judgement on how to ride bikes built on the platform of ride by wire technology until after they actually have experience riding on such a revolutionary design.

Only a very few brazen individuals are offering up baseless opinions which are interesting from a physiological perspective but have no value otherwise.

And you assume that those speaking up currently have never ridden a bike with ride-by-wire technology. You know what they say about people who make assumptions... And "baseless opinions"? Seriously? You do realize that Erci teaches people to ride motorcycles and is not just some random punk on a motorcycle forum. Just because people here disagree with you doesn't give the right to be a jerk about it.:thumbup:

 

[Neal]

And you assume that those speaking up currently have never ridden a bike with ride-by-wire technology. You know what they say about people who make assumptions... And "baseless opinions"? Seriously? You do realize that Erci teaches people to ride motorcycles and is not just some random punk on a motorcycle forum. Just because people here disagree with you doesn't give the right to be a jerk about it.:thumbup:

If you had the discipline to read the entire thread before posting- you would have saved yourself from making an asinine post which reflects only on you.

Not only have eric never ridden a ride by wire bike 3 posts deep on the subject he was still baffled on how the throttle operates.

 

[FinalImpact]

If you had the discipline to read the entire thread before posting- you would have saved yourself from making an asinine post which reflects only on you.

Not only have eric never ridden a ride by wire bike 3 posts deep on the subject he was still baffled on how the throttle operates.

Really?

Wow... just wow

 

[Motogiro]

Simmer down! Simmer down!

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[Erci]

There are so many points I can come back with, but as we all know it would just be feeding .. well.. you know.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[JeffSez59]

Yeah this is like in aviation with the advent of GPS. Many pilots learn now solely relying on a GPS to let them know where they are and navigate, yet if and when it fails they have no knowledge on how to navigate via paper charts and outdated nav aids cause they were never trained or bothered to learn having developed a total reliance on gps. Now GPS is great and all and is by far the best way but like others have already said it's really only a supplement to the "paper maps" and your skills on navigating. Now one was saying that this new tech (abs,tcs,etc.) gives the ability to a lesser skilled rider to handle a "sketchy" bike and go as fast as a skilled rider without tech and somehow the more skilled riders disapprove because apparently they feel threatened by the unskilled going just as fast is nonsense. Maybe the unskilled rider would take a tip from aviation where they just don't let you jump into an f-16 right off the bat, every good pilot came up the ranks starting in a small manageable aircraft and progressively advancing their skills in order to move up to the next aircraft(and not kill themselves). If all riders took the time to start small and develop skills then even when they did move up to said "sketchy" bike they would 1. Be more responsible and 2. Not be tripping the electronics. Cause as we know the electronic *aids* only kick in when the rider has made a mistake, so therefore if they develop riding skills they wouldn't be tripping those aids in the first place. That is all. [emoji16][emoji106]

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk

 

[TheSandman13]

Great write up. Thanks.


BTW, someone on this thread is blatantly trolling.

That seems to be a recurring theme with that someone......

 

[ltdillard]

Anyone care to speculate on the original post's video, as to what they think the average speed was on those crashes? I'm sure the video is deceiving, but it does seem most of those riders were going fairly slow. I'm just curious what their speed was heading into that turn.
Thanks.

 

[TheSandman13]

Jumping is definitely not a way to go. Best thing you can do, let go of the bike and slide on your back.. avoid the urge to put your feet or hands down until you're done sliding.
Much MUCH easier said than done.

Most importantly, if you're looking for your limits on the street, GO DO A TRACK DAY! No guard-rails, no animals, no potholes or questionable road surfaces AND typically ambulance standing by.. should things really go wrong.

You'll be a better rider and you'll likely take it down a notch on the street. :thumbup:

Thank you Eric!

Go do a track day is the smartest thing that has been said.

I'm not an expert on this, but I do have some thoughts. Thoughts that I wouldn't have without doing multiple (5 or more) track days. These guys are trying to ride like you would at the track. But they probably don't have anywhere near the experience or knowledge to understand everything that goes into being able to ride like this. Some of them might, but I would wager that a vast majority don't. And these are things that you don't learn at MSF course or similar. The only place to learn how to ride like this is at the track.

There are so many different crashes in this video, and they were all likely caused by a multitude of different things, but there are some very common basic things that I noticed in a lot of the crashes. This is a list of some, but not necessarily all of the things I'm seeing in the video, along with other possible causes.

Ranked in my order of most likely to cause a lot of these crashes:

1. Very bad body positions - leading to excessive lean angles. A lot of riders getting crossed up. Excessive lean on unknown roads=low sides. Or trying to correct, and making a potential low side an even worse high side. I'm still shaking my head at some of these videos. Ouch.
2. Very poor throttle control, leading to poor traction.
3. Very poor braking techniques, leading to poor weight distribution and poor traction...or too much traction (grip) on the wrong wheel...(can you say high side)
4. Riding beyond capabilities
4. Unknown or inconsistent road conditions
4. Improper suspension setup
4. Inexperience
4. Bad angles
4. Improper entry speed
4. Stupidity....
4. etc....

There are a lot of 4's on purpose. Because these are all important. And they all contribute. But I still think you have to understand 1-3 before you even worry about worrying about the rest.

The only reason I even put a list on here is to able to state that these are all things that you learn about and get better at and understand much better by going to the track, as long as it's run by a reputable organization that stresses safety and teaching and controlled riding. I would wager that most of these guys have (A) never been to the track or (B) have only been once, and think they don't need any more education or experience. Or (C) are total douchebags that think they already know it all.

What I've learned, is that there are so many different things that go into pushing your bike and yourself to ride more aggressively, and crashes can be caused by any number of them. If these guys had a little more knowledge and experience, or had been better at maybe just one of the top 3 or 4 things on my above list, they might have avoided the crash. And maybe not. Road conditions, equipment, and bad luck can also be factors. Tires and suspension are more important than most people realize, even to the most experienced rider. But, riding techniques and controls are still the most important factors.

I would never push my bike anywhere close to how I push it on the track. The main reason is because a crash on the street is probably going to be much worse than a crash on the track. The other is that I can learn the track conditions on that particular day and can gradually push the bike harder as conditions warrant. Cold days, hot days, smooth tracks, rough tracks, tire condition...these are all changing factors that affect how aggressive you ride.

I still haven't seen a car or a light pole or oncoming traffic at the track. Maybe one day I'll be surprised. I hope not. I like the controlled environment a little better. I don't understand the logic or need to ride like you're at the track, when you're actually on the street. Just go to the track. It's much more fun anyway.

 

[Erci]

Anyone care to speculate on the original post's video, as to what they think the average speed was on those crashes? I'm sure the video is deceiving, but it does seem most of those riders were going fairly slow. I'm just curious what their speed was heading into that turn.
Thanks.

Mark would probably give us the best answer but if I had to guess: 30-40 range.

 

[Motogiro]

Anyone care to speculate on the original post's video, as to what they think the average speed was on those crashes? I'm sure the video is deceiving, but it does seem most of those riders were going fairly slow. I'm just curious what their speed was heading into that turn.
Thanks.

I would say the speeds could be around 45 to 50 MPH in that turn. It is an upward grade and the it's flat if not a little positive on the camber. Riding it on the ground must be very different from what it looks like on the videos. It seems to me that there are a lot of bikes breaking loose on the rear wheel under what seems like not that much throttle. I wonder if there is lesser traction on that turn because of so much worn rubber?

The LA Road That Tricks Bad Motorcyclists Into Crashing | Autopia | WIRED