Body position, skill, traction (loss of), lean angle = vid to discuss

[Erci]

-the least every stock rider should do is get their suspension evaluated by Pro before they go out pushing the limits on street which you probable should never do anyways.

Now we're talking!! :thumbup:

That's just it.. pushing the limits requires both skill and the best bike setup one can afford. Riding at sensible street speeds (let's say 10-15 over limit).. if the skills are there, even a clearly undersprung/underdamped bike should not go into a low-side, unless there's something really funky on that road we can't make out from watching the vid.

 

[Erci]

For an obvious example 5:33 on the video. A bigger guy, An R6? comes into the turn, he spooks off the peg touch and brakes, standing the bike up. If the suspension was better set up he may have not compressed the suspension so much in the turn. It surprised him and his SR took over.

Watched the crash at 5:33. He's clearly crossed up (leaning the bike more than it needs to while keeping his body relatively upright). I think he would have scraped if he head solid rods in the fork instead of springs!

Can't hear the roll-on either.. is it possible that his throttle is closed all the way through the curve?

 

[Motogiro]

Watched the crash at 5:33. He's clearly crossed up (leaning the bike more than it needs to while keeping his body relatively upright). I think he would have scraped if he head solid rods in the fork instead of springs!

Can't hear the roll-on either.. is it possible that his throttle is closed all the way through the curve?

His lower body is shifted off,His upper doesn't follow, he is on throttle. Then he tightens the turn quickly (CS), touches the peg and SR takes effect where he comes off throttle and brakes. Experience would have kept him on the peg and through the turn. Suspension would have probably kept him off the peg in the first place but then we're back to the chicken or the egg. He may have even made it through the dirt with softer inputs. Lol!

 

[lawlberg]

Never been there, but I love videos of people losing it there - rnicky mouse has a good spot

I remember reading(or seeing, or hearing) somewhere that, in addition to the loads of rider error that happens, another contributing factor is the shape of the road there. At the point where people feel comfortable doing a faster roll on (near the end of the turn), the outside drops off (relative to the turn - it might be more correct to say it levels out, since most of the turn is at a downward slope to the inside) effectively increasing your lean angle right when you're going to be pinning the throttle to rocket out of the turn and impress all of the people nursing their lowsided bikes on the infield.

On that note, anyone who would be ready to push it on that road should have seen these videos by now and know to watch out on the exit of that turn. It has more film posted on it than any road East (or west) of Russia (dash cams).

 

[FinalImpact]

@Motogiro that was a good video!

Here we go....
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPnkDd0cepg]Mulholland @ 300fps - Red Epic Super Slowmo - YouTube[/ame]

This - Real Time and SLOWMO of close calls. Pegs in on a few. Worth a watch.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcZyDSM6GI]Close Calls Compilation - YouTube[/ame]



Wasn't what I was seeking but.... Poor guys (Crash Backwards Compilation)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7AxSVeqPE]Crash Backwards Compilation - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Neal]

Now we're talking!! :thumbup:

if the skills are there, even a clearly undersprung/underdamped bike should not go into a low-side, unless there's something really funky on that road we can't make out from watching the vid.

Even with a completely unskilled rider on my bike it is not going to low-side or high side. You can lean the bike as far you like and bang down or chop the throttle faster than the speed of light and bike will remain feeling evenly balanced front to back and firmly planted on the road.

- Ride by wire, traction control and electronic "engine" braking.

Some people bemoan the advance of technology and how it diminishes riding skill. I see these as riders being prone to flagellation as if they wanted to snap a limb, back, neck or at least get a good road rash every time they made a riding mistake or perhaps they want to see lesser skilled riders fly into guard rails because those new riders don't deserve to be able to ride like them.


There are already plenty of ways to die or get seriously hurt on a motorcycle ride needing perfect throttle control for a sketchy bike doesn't have to be one.

 

[Erci]

Even with a completely unskilled rider on my bike it is not going to low-side or high side. You can lean the bike as far you like and bang down or chop the throttle faster than the speed of light and bike will remain feeling evenly balanced front to back and firmly planted on the road.

Wow... just wow

 

[JeffSez59]

On a side note.. a lot of the riders in this video are just under skilled when they and the bike are in upset attitudes(the term we use in aviation)and with the art of recovery. As we know the bike wants to stay upright due to the gyroscopic force of the wheels. So I believe a little time on the dirt building dirt riding skills and getting used to lose uneven terrain where the bike is at 90% chaos most of the time would help develop those skills then maybe some track time so they can employ and most importantly recognize what there bike is doing and what action it takes to just settle the bike down would reduce many of these accidents. Hence- Track action 2013 - Best Moto2™ saves: http://youtu.be/lvA_H1Ri8Co. [emoji106]

How not to crash - Best MotoGP™ saves of 2013: http://youtu.be/nXaLIYlrh6Y
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk

 

[Neal]

Wow... just wow

Motogp tech trickling down to production bikes didn't surprise me- that is to be expected.

What did give me a "wow" was finding out that an app is being made by the manufacture so owners can update their bikes using their smartphones instead of having to drive to a distributor or mail their ECU.

 

[Erci]

Motogp tech trickling down to production bikes didn't surprise me- that is to be expected.

What did give me a "wow" was finding out that an app is being made by the manufacture so owners can update their bikes using their smartphones instead of having to drive to a distributor or mail their ECU.

I stand by my "wow". I hope this MotoGP technology trickles back to MotoGP bikes, because MotoGP riders are still low-siding and high-siding all the time.

 

[Erci]

Some people bemoan the advance of technology and how it diminishes riding skill. I see these as riders being prone to flagellation as if they wanted to snap a limb, back, neck or at least get a good road rash every time they made a riding mistake or perhaps they want to see lesser skilled riders fly into guard rails because those new riders don't deserve to be able to ride like them.


There are already plenty of ways to die or get seriously hurt on a motorcycle ride needing perfect throttle control for a sketchy bike doesn't have to be one.

It's true some riders say that having this technology is like cheating. Riders can absolutely benefit from ABS / Traction control / Lean angle sensors in some situations. However, depending on this technology to mask riders' lack of skills can lead to trouble.

Example: In one of the ERCs I coached, a Harley rider was tripping his ABS on each and every quick stop. Not a problem.. if his ABS never ever fails and if he never needs to brake while leaned over. He did the right thing by choosing to practice and improve his skills, but how many riders out there never bother?

Back to original thread: The slow motion videos are sweet! And the close calls one.. where the back starts to step out? In just about every case you can hear a whole lot of throttle.. greedy right wrist.

 

[Neal]

I stand by my "wow". I hope this MotoGP technology trickles back to MotoGP bikes, because MotoGP riders are still low-siding and high-siding all the time.

Now I am just plain face palming.

Motogp riders primarily crash because they lose the front braking hard and turning too fast into turns- that has nothing to do with throttle control which was the discussion.

 

[Erci]

Now I am just plain face palming.

Motogp riders primarily crash because they lose the front braking hard and turning too fast into turns- that has nothing to do with throttle control which was the discussion.

I didn't know this discussion became restricted to throttle control-only, but OK..

Losing the front, sure.. but what about high-siding.. you saying that's not throttle-related?

I'll quote you again:

Even with a completely unskilled rider on my bike it is not going to low-side or high side. You can lean the bike as far you like and bang down or chop the throttle faster than the speed of light and bike will remain feeling evenly balanced front to back and firmly planted on the road."

Really? Your bike is not going to transfer a whole lot of weight to the front wheel when someone is leaned over and chops the throttle? Front traction patch is not going to grow and rear traction patch is not going to get smaller? Fork is not going to compress at all, taking away some of the ground clearance and front's ability to absorb road imperfections? And if the road is not-so-perfect, your fully leaned over bike is going to stay firmly planted on it, with all that traction the unskilled rider is asking from the front tire?

 

[Neal]

Really? Your bike is not going to transfer a whole lot of weight to the front wheel when someone is leaned over and chops the throttle?

Yes, really.

The engine braking is electronic and has a couple settings so you can choose how you want it to feel.

Chopping the throttle as fast as you can or rolling off slowly gives no difference- either way you are going to experience the same electronically generated smooth gentle decrease. In a corner chopping the throttle is going to going to help you gently tighten up your line when you are running wide (on my bike).


For those that state that technology is a cover up for poor skills (and this goes for everything in life not just riding)- I disagree.

Technology advancements are game changers and you can either learn to play by the new rules or complain that your skill set is becoming obsolete while fading slowing out of relevance.

 

[bdevries]

For those that state that technology is a cover up for poor skills (and this goes for everything in life not just riding)- I disagree.

Technology advancements are game changers and you can either learn to play by the new rules or complain that your skill set is becoming obsolete while fading slowing out of relevance.

I'd rather learn the basics and fundamentals and then someday use outside methods to further my speed/agility on a bike than mask my less than optimal skills with tech stuff. Just like supplements are supposed to SUPPLEMENT(not replace) a good diet, so is technology supposed to SUPPLEMENT good riding, not replace it

 

[Neal]

I'd rather learn the basics and fundamentals and then someday use outside methods to further my speed/agility on a bike than mask my less than optimal skills with tech stuff. Just like supplements are supposed to SUPPLEMENT(not replace) a good diet, so is technology supposed to SUPPLEMENT good riding, not replace it

Send me a picture of your abacus or I don't believe you understand what you are saying.

 

[Erci]

Yes, really.

The engine braking is electronic and has a couple settings so you can choose how you want it to feel.

Chopping the throttle as fast as you can or rolling off slowly gives no difference- either way you are going to experience the same electronically generated smooth gentle decrease. In a corner chopping the throttle is going to going to help you gently tighten up your line when you are running wide (on my bike).


For those that state that technology is a cover up for poor skills (and this goes for everything in life not just riding)- I disagree.

Technology advancements are game changers and you can either learn to play by the new rules or complain that your skill set is becoming obsolete while fading slowing out of relevance.

You should contact MSF, Neal. Please explain to them that most of the exercises in the curriculum are no longer necessarily because of today's technology. It'll make my job a lot easier if we go from 16 to 5 or so

 

[rsw81]

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:

While I can understand where Neal is coming from on this clearly heavily debated topic, I can't say I agree with you Neal. Yes, the technology is making it safer for all of us to ride, from ABS to traction control to lean sensors dulling throttle response to keep the rear in check. However, NONE of this replaces good riding skill.

Semi-Related Example: Many of the new high end luxury cars have radar based adaptive cruise control and lane sensors, thus you can literally take your hands and feet off the controls and it will stay in the lane and keep a safe distance from the car in front of you at both highway speed and in traffic. Do you believe we don't need to learn how to properly drive a car anymore since this technology exists? If so, then you have made your argument valid. However, I'd still disagree with you because technology is fallible which is why none of these autonomous systems are approved by the DOT without the ability to override them with driver input.

The technology in modern motorcycles does not and cannot prevent you from entering a corner too hot and losing the front end. Physics is physics and there is only so much traction to be had, regardless of what the computer is capable of doing to improve that traction. Thus, you will still lose the front end if you ride like an asshat and need to brake that hard while entering into a corner, or come off the throttle for the same reason and load the front tire too much.

So once again, I agree with you the technology is simply impressive and is definitely making riding a safer activity for all of us, but they don't defy physics and still require a steady mind to operate them safely.:cheer:

 

[Marthy]

If you take car technology by example. Going from the early days of no seat belts (getting ejected from the car was safer during a crash, those 30 gals aluminum fuel tank were blowing up most of the time) to having cars with ABS, traction control, seat belt and air bags... we can keep going.

I-95 is strait like a drag strip from Jacksonville to Miami. Every time I ride to MIA I see at least one car park in the fence... if it rain there's one every 15 miles. I never understand the concept of crashing going strait? All those hi-tech widget are there to make average riding a bit safer... by adding dump proof aids. We all know that ABS suck and a good driver will stop faster w/o ABS. Traction control can actually make your lap time slower.. but it gives some a sense of comfort knowing that if you screw up... something there is going to help you fixing things.

So basically, technology doesn't make anyone better. It just give some false feeling of security/safety. Same as the Titanic was suppose to be unsinkable. We all know how that end up.

 

[FinalImpact]

If you take car technology by example. Going from the early days of no seat belts (getting ejected from the car was safer during a crash, those 30 gals aluminum fuel tank were blowing up most of the time) to having cars with ABS, traction control, seat belt and air bags... we can keep going.

I-95 is strait like a drag strip from Jacksonville to Miami. Every time I ride to MIA I see at least one car park in the fence... if it rain there's one every 15 miles. I never understand the concept of crashing going strait? All those hi-tech widget are there to make average riding a bit safer... by adding dump proof aids. We all know that ABS suck and a good driver will stop faster w/o ABS. Traction control can actually make your lap time slower.. but it gives some a sense of comfort knowing that if you screw up... something there is going to help you fixing things.

So basically, technology doesn't make anyone better. It just give some false feeling of security/safety. Same as the Titanic was suppose to be unsinkable. We all know how that end up.

// minor thread derail -
My concern with younger drivers learning to drive modern cars that park themselves and do blind spot warning, stability control etc (aside from everything you guys mentioned) is what happens to these drivers should they be placed into a more primitive cage? In some cases the general population will be at risk if they have not acquired the proper skills to drive a less advanced vehicle.

The same is true of the modern bike. Those which don't offer sufficient feedback to inform the rider "A system is keeping the bike in check", will learn a harsh truth on a bike not equally equipped.


Closer to home:
In these parts there are "farmers corners" or good square 90° turns. Most are flat in nature while others are banked. For those bikes which are not setup properly, these banked corners can be trouble. The reason being, you can carry enough speed through these corners to drag toes and pegs as the suspension compresses so much more compared to non-banked turn of the same radius.
Its something to keep in mind when going in hot. FWIW - the compression settings on mine are set pretty firm too. Needless to say its been eye opener to touch in the corners.