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[ThirtyTwo]

I was just scanning this Underground Politics section and saw that much of it has to do with criticism of the man in office right now, Barack Obama.

So, I wondered if there was a balance, namely criticism of his predecessor, George W. Bush. Unfortunately, I can't tell because this section was not online back before the 2008 election.

I'd be glad to criticize both of them, for what it's worth, but it seems that Bush topics are passe at this point.

Being new to motorcycles, I wouldn't know if politics of bikers reflect more of a conservative political position, but from the small sample of posts presented on this board, it would seem so.

Or, are the more liberally minded folks just not posting or is it a case where you criticize the guy you have in office who happens to be liberal now?

Also, since this is an international forum, why is most of the political talk from the U.S.?

I'm just trying to get a feel for the political orientation of motorcyclists (at least those who like the same kind of motorcycle I like). So, thanks in advance.

 

[mstewar1]

These are my views. Though I've recently been asked to help moderate this section, I wouldn't want my comments to be construed as those of a representative of the site.

There was a poll about political perspectives and affiliations some time ago, right around election time, IIRC. I believe that the results showed a slight majority in the conservative column, but there are folks of all stripes represented on the forum. I searched for the poll but, as is usually my fortune, I couldn't find what I was after.

The section is new, so yeah, the majority of posts have been directed toward the Obama administration. During the last U.S. political pony show the threads that now appear here were posted in The Bar. This section was created because folks didn't want them there. I tend to imagine this section as the dimly lit curb outside the back of the dive bar, the place where folks park their bikes. The folks who hang out back here are the ones who want to have "serious" conversations rather than partake of the more topical chatter inside the bar. And occasionally, someone who should'nt venture out here does, and they find somewhat quickly, that if they can't back up their views with calm, clear, rational discussion, that the folks out here will dismiss them/shut them down (a virtual a$$ kicking, if you will).

While I believe that there are a fair number of "liberal" forum members who hold anti-Bush views (I will admit to being [strongly] anti-Bush, socially very progressive, yet fiscally conservative, and sadly, woefully unrepresented), they don't seem to spend a lot of time in this forum section. I'm sure that there are plenty of "liberal" folks who could present lucid, fact-based commentary on the Bush administration, but for whatever reason, they just don't spend time here. And, while I don't offer nor intend this as a condemnation nor broad/overall characterization of the forum liberals, there has been a tendency for seeming liberal folks to venture in here and make unsupported, shrill or sniping claims. This type of activity is precisely the kind that tends to reduce on-line political discussions to polarized shouting matches. It's pointless.

I will not, can not claim that I know what the motivations/reasons are for the lack of participation from the forums more "liberal" members -- my gut tells me that they are just glad he's gone and they are more interested in simply riding their motos and talking about the same. There was even a request submitted to not have the posts for this section appear on the main forum landing page. I'm not sure how that was eventually resolved, but the sense that I got was that there are folks who just really don't want to be bothered by political discussions on a motorcycle forum.

Living in the San Francisco Bay Area as I do, I meet motorcyclists of all stripes. My observation of motorcyclists in this forum is this: the more conservative folks are more vocal/committed/visible when it comes to expressing and discussing political issues. It tends to make this section of the forum feel rather conservative or one-sided. All political discussion is welcome here, but it's got to be presented as fact-based and it's got to be calm and lucid. No punches will be pulled from those who don't agree, but Wrightme, Hellgate, and I will do our best to ensure that the discussion remains civil.

This is the first on-line forum in which I've ever been an active member. It's been interesting -- and a real learning experience for me -- to experience people in the virtual-only setting. From my perspective, this on-line thing is an imperfect means of community building (and I work in software development), but it's what we're dealing with and, good and bad, many folks do seem willing and able to try and work at it.

As regards the international aspect of the overall forum, this has been discussed here, too, though not at great length. Again, speaking only for myself, I'd love to hear the viewpoints of those outside of the U.S. But I can't explain why more folks outside of the U.S. don't chime in. Maybe they're just glad Bush is gone... I do tend to think that folks outside of the U.S. tend to think of Americans as fairly clueless when it comes to the political realities and machinations of the rest of the world. I tend to agree with this notion and, sadly, this forum has rarely proved me wrong.

Apologies for the length of the post...hopefully some of it makes sense.

 

[dean owens]

first, i think it simply has to do with who is in office right now. they are the ones that people talk about. if this section stays around long enough for a conservative to get in office i'm sure you'll read about how stupid he is. have you noticed that all republicans are stupid?

...(I will admit to being [strongly] anti-Bush, socially very progressive, yet fiscally conservative, and sadly, woefully unrepresented)...

have you checked out the libertarian party? might be something to look into. i'm pretty conservative (especially fiscally) and have struggled with some of the social standings with the libertarian party, but in the end i agree with freedom.

As regards the international aspect of the overall forum, this has been discussed here, too, though not at great length. Again, speaking only for myself, I'd love to hear the viewpoints of those outside of the U.S. But I can't explain why more folks outside of the U.S. don't chime in. Maybe they're just glad Bush is gone... I do tend to think that folks outside of the U.S. tend to think of Americans as fairly clueless when it comes to the political realities and machinations of the rest of the world. I tend to agree with this notion and, sadly, this forum has rarely proved me wrong.

personally, i'm someone that could care less what the world thinks of us. i don't have time to live my life worrying about what others think. i have to do what's right and be fine with that. i could say more on the subject but we'll leave it at that.

 

[mstewar1]

first, i think it simply has to do with who is in office right now. they are the ones that people talk about. if this section stays around long enough for a conservative to get in office i'm sure you'll read about how stupid he is. have you noticed that all republicans are stupid?


have you checked out the libertarian party? might be something to look into. i'm pretty conservative (especially fiscally) and have struggled with some of the social standings with the libertarian party, but in the end i agree with freedom.



personally, i'm someone that could care less what the world thinks of us. i don't have time to live my life worrying about what others think. i have to do what's right and be fine with that. i could say more on the subject but we'll leave it at that.

I'm not sure if the "...all republicans are stupid." is meant as a joke or not. I'm going to err on the side of assuming that it is. If it's not, then it's indicative/emblematic of the type of commentary that typically derails thoughtful discussion of political issues.

I am a member of the libertarian party. I just generally choose to keep my party affiliation to myself. Despite my membership, even the libertarian party doesn't fully represent my views, but they're the closest. It's too bad they don't have more traction overall. I'm a big believer that we need to break the stranglehold that the depublican/remocrat thugs have on our political system. We need multiple parties. Having more than two will help to break the ridiculous pendulum-like policy swings that we experience in this country as the two parties go through the rotating doors.

While I don't mean to pick a fight and I'm not condemning it, the final point about having to do what you think is right is the sort of thinking that I was referring to in commenting about how Americans get cast as uncaring or clueless about world politics. In my opinion, political events elsewhere in the world do ultimately matter for us, whether we have the desire or take the time to understand them.

 

[dean owens]

sorry i wasn't clearer... the "all republicans are stupid" just seems to be the fall back that i hear over and over from people who don't agree with them. there hasn't been a single republican that i can think of in recent history that hasn't been either shown as an evil villain or a bumbling idiot. i don't think they all have been. i think some have done some stupid things... but that's far from being an idiot.


and my comment about the world and politics... i do think it's wise to know what is going on around the world. i think it's wise to know who your own reps are and so forth. i'm just saying that i will never vote for someone because all of europe thinks i should... or that the world will now someone like us because of it... or people in canada will think we're geniuses. i don't spend (or not spend) money out of my checking account based on what my neighbors think. and i don't have just enough kids so my neighbors will like me. i run my household the best i can and how i think it should be done, while keeping up with what's going on in my community.

i think the country is the same way. we as a country have to do what is best for us. if someone else doesn't like it, oh well. from that standpoint, i don't care what people outside of the country have to say out our politics.

probably not explained well, but hopefully you get my point. i'm in a bit of hurry with a crying baby in the background so forgive me if my explanation isn't perfect.

 

[mstewar1]

sorry i wasn't clearer... the "all republicans are stupid" just seems to be the fall back that i hear over and over from people who don't agree with them. there hasn't been a single republican that i can think of in recent history that hasn't been either shown as an evil villain or a bumbling idiot. i don't think they all have been. i think some have done some stupid things... but that's far from being an idiot.


and my comment about the world and politics... i do think it's wise to know what is going on around the world. i think it's wise to know who your own reps are and so forth. i'm just saying that i will never vote for someone because all of europe thinks i should... or that the world will now someone like us because of it... or people in canada will think we're geniuses. i don't spend (or not spend) money out of my checking account based on what my neighbors think. and i don't have just enough kids so my neighbors will like me. i run my household the best i can and how i think it should be done, while keeping up with what's going on in my community.

i think the country is the same way. we as a country have to do what is best for us. if someone else doesn't like it, oh well. from that standpoint, i don't care what people outside of the country have to say out our politics.

probably not explained well, but hopefully you get my point. i'm in a bit of hurry with a crying baby in the background so forgive me if my explanation isn't perfect.

Thanks Dean. I think that both sides are guilty of the sort of churlish line drawing you point to. Interweb political discussions just have a really predictable tendency to fall into that kind of, "well, your side is just dumb" kind of reductive position taking. It's really too bad.

I may not share it, but I do get your point and respect it.

 

[ThirtyTwo]

Well, I don't have a motorcycle yet...saving up for an FZ6, so I'm hanging out on the forum trying to live vicariously through you riders who already have a bike.

Since I don't have much experience with motorcycles but a couple of advanced degrees politics and a term as a city councilman, a stint or two as a campaign director, etc., I thought I'd at least jump into a forum where I "know" something.

I don't belong to a political party. I hated Bush for his colossal blunders in foreign policy and for stripping away several personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution in the name of Freedom. So, I was relieved when Obama got elected...

...but what is he doing to the national deficit? I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt for a certain amount of time (like I did with Bush, honestly believing that he may have had validation to invade Iraq). Eventually, though, I'm afraid that I'll have to withdraw my support for Obama if his exorbitant levels of spending don't pull us out of the recession. He and his national advisors had better be right about what they're doing because the price tag is frightening. To borrow a phrase, I HOPE he's on track.

This forum does seem to have rational people participating in it. I appreciate the even tone of the posts and I truly thank the people who post what the Obama administration is doing because without the conservatives to point out potentially detrimental policy, I'd be inclined to just hand the White House carte blanche (no pun intended) and let them pull us out of our problems. In other words, I watched Bush like a hawk once I figured out that he needed watching but until someone from the right-hand side of the aisle hips me to the scene, I would have been blissfully unaware.

So, keep me posted on what Obama's up to and sell me a 2007+ bike with <5000 miles on it for <$5000 so I can get out there and ride with y'all.

 

[Cuba]

Welcome to the forum, it sounds like you have some interesting insights to share with us. I agree with much of what you said but I need to question this statement:

I hated Bush for his colossal blunders in foreign policy and for stripping away several personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution in the name of Freedom. So, I was relieved when Obama got elected...

Bush wasn't in this election. I understand that Obama decided to run against him anyway, so the statement was kind of funny in that regard. I have to admit, his machine was good! Now that it needs to produce results rather than blame and propaganda though, I'm not so convinced.

Obama is the polar opposite of Bush in terms of propaganda and spin control, but in terms of discipline ("I'm going to war with Iraq no matter the cost" vs. "I'm spending every dime I can get on everything I want no matter the cost") or protection of our constitutional rights ("Patriot Act" vs. Ignoring the 10th amendment entirely, destruction of property rights, etc.) or deficit spending (Hundreds of billions vs. trillions)... I'd say they are both horrible but Obama is just getting started.

Best of luck on the bike, it's a great choice. All around great bike, versatile, cheap, powerful enough, reliable, very well behaved.

 

[Hellgate]

Hey 32, welcome! :welcome: I think you'll add an nice dimension to our chats.

I don't make it here as often as I'd like.

As far as an '07+, 5,000 miles for less than $5,000, they are out there! I sold my '07 with about 6,200 miles for $4,750. That included, SS brakelines, sliders and Pirellis with only 900 miles on them. Keep looking.

What part of CO you in? I grew up in Estes Park, High School at Littleton High, undergrad at CSU and grad at UNC. Moved to Austin in '94, I miss real mountain bike riding, close to home skiing and fly fishing. If you know of anyone who needs a senior operations manager I'd move back in a heart beat!