honda bike, good compression, wont start

[travgag]

Hey guys,

Im a yammy guy, but I dont know if this is a faux pas, lol, since honda doesnt seem to have a good forum like this, here it goes

My friends dad was selling a old 200 xr for 180 $ so i took it, he said the piston was changed by his "mechanic" and it ran two years ago, and probibly just needed new gas,

Im not sure what year it is, early 80's i think, the Vin ends in 85, but i dont think its that new,

anyways, I drained the tank and bowl, cleaned the main jet, filled it with new gas, and kicked it over

i got a few back fires, theres good spark, one time it backfired so hard allmost wrecked my foot, and then the kick start stayed down, i pulled it back up, and wouldnt turn over the motor, so i put it in gear and while on the kick i can get it to turn back over, and same everyonce and a while, im guessing it chiped the gear or something, should I open up the trans and look?

im getting gas in the cylinder, plug is wet, the timing must be off since it mostly backfires out the carb, or the valves arent setup right, but theres loads of compression, i havent put a compression gauge on it yet, I might tomorrow.

how do i check tdc at the crank and top end ? pull the mag cover and valve cover off probibly

also there's a slight oil leak at the lower bolt in the mag side case, thats supposed to be dry right ? the crank seal is blown then, i havent opened the case yet, i will to find tdc correct ?


heres some photos

thanks any ideas ?

 

[William]

It’s a 1982 model, denoted by the “C” in the VIN. Cyclechaos.

It looks like a good start for a restoration. I’ve restored a XR100R and an XR500R, both from the mid-80s and found the Clymer manuals to be excellent resource guides. You may be able to find a free download of the factory service manual too. It’s been awhile, but iirc these early XRs were pretty easy to work on. My recommendation would be to get one of those manuals and start picking away at the issues. It's fun working on old bikes. Good luck!

 

[Nelly]

You have checked all the things I can think of. Have you checked the carb for blocked jets?
Is fuel going into the float bowel?
I used to find TDC on my Honda CD200 by removing the plug and gently putting a round piece of steel into the plug hole. By rotating the crank with a ratchet and socket the steel would rice up in the bore and fall. At the point just before the steel falls, this is TDC.
IMPORTANT TO ROTATE THE CRANK IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION.
ALSO THIS IS OBVIOUSLY ONLY A ROUGH GUIDE IN THE ABSENCE OF A TDC TOOL.
There should be timing marks on the crankcase and on the magneto to indicate TDC. A strobe light is very useful if you can get hold of one.

Good luck
Nelly

 

[vinmansbrew]

You are gonna have to open up the tranny. If the kicker is not coming back up to rest, there is damage inside. You really do not want the kicker falling down while trying to ride. This is your first order of business. While doing this, you may as well replace your seals and gaskets and check all clearances. No point in fixing the engine if you do not do this.
otherwise, if you are wet with gas, you are flooded really. I am guessing the carbs are not fully clean, particularly the idle circuit. If you sprayed carb cleaner in there, it is not clean. Carb cleaner is good for washing stuff out that you have loosened up, even dipping is not much help when it comes to slow jets.

 

[champion221elite]

An engine needs three things at the right time to run correctly... they are fuel, compression and spark.

Of the three necessary elements, the weakest link is the ignition system. You might have spark, but it could be weak or delivered at the wrong time.

Not sure it this bike has a CDI type, or points/ condenser type ignition system. I'd also check to make sure the timing is set correctly. If it's off by a few degrees, that might explain some of your problems. Since your kick starter is not resetting, you're going to have to open up the crank case anyways. This would be a good opportunity to check things out while getting the kick starter fixed.

 

[travgag]

allrighty ! so opened the trans, looked around, the kicker main gear is good, and it does come back up, so should be fine,

now i opened the cdi box on top and found a little peice of steel that has broken off, i further took apart the cdi pulser and found another of the same peice and found where they go, not sure what it does or how it works, is it for advance timing ? and why would those nibs fall into that notch, isnt that why they broke ?

and the timing chain is extremly loose, like it would move 1/4-1/2 inch, sprokets look good, and i think that is out for tensioner fixable (which would just ware out more) so i think a new one, il have to pull the mag i guess, i have that case cover off allready, and theres a key so should be able the get the chain out without pulling the cam and valve cover out,

heres the exploded view
honda c d pulser partsmanual fiche xr200 1982

look at the peices and were it came from here,

i shrunk the images, they were too big

 

[CowtownBiomed]

The idle jet on these gets plugged then it draws through the mains..
WAY rich...

Just a fyi...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

allrighty ! so opened the trans, looked around, the kicker main gear is good, and it does come back up, so should be fine,

now i opened the cdi box on top and found a little peice of steel that has broken off, i further took apart the cdi pulser and found another of the same peice and found where they go, not sure what it does or how it works, is it for advance timing ? and why would those nibs fall into that notch, isnt that why they broke ?

and the timing chain is extremly loose, like it would move 1/4-1/2 inch, sprokets look good, and i think that is out for tensioner fixable (which would just ware out more) so i think a new one, il have to pull the mag i guess, i have that case cover off allready, and theres a key so should be able the get the chain out without pulling the cam and valve cover out,

heres the exploded view
honda c d pulser partsmanual fiche xr200 1982

look at the peices and were it came from here,

i shrunk the images, they were too big

If you look to the very inside of the unit, the tabs appear to have busted off of that. Their probably stops for the ignition advance (the spring / weights). If you look closer at the parts fisch, it states "advancer spark".. That would explain why its not firing on time. Once the bike starts, the weights should kick out and advance the timing. The timing as it sits its likely very retarded....

I'd check the cam timing with the loose cam chain as well. Under the outer left side MAIN cover are 2 round caps that should unscrew CC. The larger center one is for turning the crankshaft CC (forward). Looking thru the other hole, as mentioned above, should be another mark, likely a "T" for TDC. Unless you have a dial indicator gauge in the spark plug hole, you need to go by these marks as the crank will move several degree's while the piston is at TDC.. Its also a CDI unit if you look at the upper left corner of the parts fisch.

Check that the cam chain tensioner is functioning, if the tensioner is extended out fully and the chain is still loose, the cam chain itself/guides are stretched..

 

[travgag]

yea, i bought a new timing chain for 40 $ and going to order a new timing advance peice, I figured out how it works, my timing coulda been 180 degreed off since thoes two tabs broke off,

I coulda got it welded back maybe at work, and the bike should start and run like a champ ! thanks

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

When checking the cam timing to the crank, make sure besides TDC, your at TDC on the compression stroke (right after the intake valves open and close). That's when it should fire. The valves are usually checked/adjusted then as well.

Good luck and post your results!

 

[travgag]

perfect thanks ! will do

 

[travgag]

any idea if the flywheel case is supposed to have some oil in it ? right, for the timing chain ?, i found a oil circulation diagram and looks like it does, thanks !

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

any idea if the flywheel case is supposed to have some oil in it ? right, for the timing chain ?, i found a oil circulation diagram and looks like it does, thanks !

I'd be surprised if it didn't have oil in it...

Oil helps cools things down besides having oil dripping off the cam chain. Most japenese bikes GENERALLY will have a little bit (1/4-1/2 cup) of oil in the cavity under that cover..

Count on that gasket tearing as well with its age...

 

[travgag]

Well everybody !

good news, i got that piece welded check it out ! tig,

Put it back together took a little while, It was hard to tell if the timing mark was perfect on the cam, it looked one tooth off, so i went to move it and it slipped off the sprocket, so i had to start from scratch, put it back together and noticed there's an adjustment for the spark pickup. I put it back to where it was as much as i could by marks i found,

the thing runs great ! but it backfires, does that mean to much gas, or should i advance or bring back the pickup ? i still have to clean the carb good so it will idle etc.

im not sure were the choke is full half and on, i had ran it in the middle for the test when it was backfiring

 

[travgag]

now to enjoy the bike ! not bad for 30 years old !

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Excellent!!

I'd put a little oil on the pivot points of where the weights rest as they look like they need some lubrication.

Do the basic's first. If the carb hasn't been apart, check/clean it. There's likly a rubber boot at both ends of the carb where it mounts to the head and air box. Check for cracks/leaking. Besides a visual check, you can spray carb cleaner, while the engine is idleing, on the boots and listen any rise in the RPM's. That's a strong indication of a leaky boot (expected due to its age)

As for the choke, usually when you pull it out, its at full choke.

Also, if the spark advancer is adjustable, either try setting it back to about where it was before or you should be able to safely set it in the middle of the adjustment range.

If you don't have a shop manual yet, you may be able to Google "timing marks" for your bike and or find a forum (I'm sure there's one) and check there for the correct setting/cam timing marks.

Looking at the parts fisch (http://www.powersportsplus.com/part...1982/XR200+A/CAM+CHAIN+++TENSIONER/parts.html ) , its a single cam. To check the marks, as stated earlier, remove the two left side crankcase plugs and find TDC. Keep tension on the front of the cam chain (crank slowly forward or CC). After the intake valves open and close, the TDC mark should come up on the crank. Look for a mark on the cam gear. I suspect it'll probably be even with the valve cover surface at either the 9:00 or 3:00 position.. Check the valve clearances as well while there.. Without a manual, I'd think the valve clearances should be close to .010" cold. Previous posters can probably get you a closer # re the exact clearances.. A valve too tight will cause back firing/crappy running too.

The chain tensioner looks pretty basic

 

[travgag]

Yea its great,

so good idea with the light oil on the spark advancer, the boot look mint, this bike seams in real good condition, but i have some carb cleaner ill spray,

I had set it in the middle and where there was marks of were it previously was,

I found a atc ( three wheeler same motor manual) and i had had the entire side case off to do tdc etc. worked good, i though valce clearance cold was maybe more like 0.002 '' il have to check, but i did check for a little bit of play in the valves at tdc.

anyways thanks for your time !

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Yea its great,

so good idea with the light oil on the spark advancer, the boot look mint, this bike seams in real good condition, but i have some carb cleaner ill spray,

I had set it in the middle and where there was marks of were it previously was,

I found a atc ( three wheeler same motor manual) and i had had the entire side case off to do tdc etc. worked good, i though valce clearance cold was maybe more like 0.002 '' il have to check, but i did check for a little bit of play in the valves at tdc.

anyways thanks for your time !

No problem.

Be really careful with the carb cleaner around soft parts (aluminum/steel is ok) as some is very aggressive and will melt plastic, rubber o-rings, etc. brake cleaner works pretty well and isn't nearly as abrasive...

For an air cooled bike, the valve tolerances are going to a bit wider than a water cooled bike, .002" is extremly tight...

FYI, the FZ6 engine intake valve spec's are: .0051-.0079
exhaust is: .0091-.0118

Your Honda 200 should be a bit wider than those

 

[travgag]

Sounds good, So i had it running all weekend ! there was missing a idle control screw, i cleaned the carb and it was good to go, loads of power, love it,

except for the kickstart is stripped, but only at a certain spot, and by turning the rear tire and moving it past that stripped spot i can then kick it over, pain it the but, I took the transmission side cover off, and i have to split the case to investigate, i found some of them on ebay,

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Excllent, almost there!


Looking at thr parts fisch:

Honda Motorcycle Parts 1982 XR200 A TRANSMISSION Diagram

Part #18 is the kick start idler gear. If that gear is not on the outside of the center cases (Yamaha's usually are, but I don't know about the XR) and there's no other damage to the kicker assembly just under the clutch cover, I suspect you'l have to split cases to get to that gear. Looking closer at the parts fisch, there's a thrush washer beyond the gear indicating its inside the crankcase with the rest of the transmission. It appears to ride on a bushing so it should just come off easily once accessed. It is at least, the closest gear to the outside on the shaft...

With a flash light and the clutch cover off, you may be able to peek into the center case and look at that gear.

Also, pay attention for any steel teeth (2 or 3) laying on the crankcase bottom.