Frustration with riders refusing to accept proper technique

[Bikebiz]

I wouldn't be too hung up on the message getting through. I didn't know about countersteering until at least 5 years into road riding and I don't think it ever disadvantaged me in any way.

One trick I recently learned. We got my sons some tiny plastic motorbike models recently and they have moving wheels but fixed bars. No matter how far you lean it, you can't get it to turn. We all know this, but would be great if you had something like this!

 

[Wh0M3]

I grew up riding mini bikes and mopeds. When I took the riders course and they talked about the "push - push" for turning I thought they were talking about pushing the bike as in leaning in that direction. It wasn't till later that I started to understand and the phrase from Pixar's "Cars" came to mind, "Turn right to go left".

When I took the skills course one of the instructors blew my mind when he did the twisties one handed and then told us to do the same. I felt it really stuck in my mind what they were talking about all this time. When you turn one handed you are forced to do everything at once, throddle control and countersteering.

I have heard of someone taking a riders course that taught them to turn without stearing, I have heard this second hand and haven't been able to ask the person directly and have no desire to either (personal reasons) The story is the teacher fixed the handlebar so you couldn't turn it and then force the rider to lean to make the bike turn. I never could see how this would help anyone be a better rider.

Oh and another thing, I have to wonder while reading what you have written about your friend if he is one of those riders who believe it is best to lay down the bike for emergency stops. I know this is an entirely different subject and there is a thread already for it. Just curious I guess.

 

[agp]

I have the twist 2 dvd (highly recommended). It's at the point where he refuses to even look at any materials or any actual on bike tests. He'll just disagree because he can't stand the possibility of being wrong, maybe it's because he is an auto mechanic. If he doesn't bring it up anymore I'm not going to. I just hope he never has to do an emergency swerve or comes into a turn too hot.

He is also the type of person that believes in laying down the bike for emergency stops. His son doesn't use the front brake.

The US really needs to make the MSF beginner course mandatory or make the licensing test more stringent. It won't solve the problem of the large amount of people riding without their license, but I think it would help those who want to ride legally.

 

[Wh0M3]

I heard a story about a guy who took a few years off riding then got up on a friends bike road down the highway doing fine, then went to take the exit and pretty much forgot how to turn. He kept trying to turn the handle bar like a car and of course that didn't work, he ended up in the guard rail. He lived to tell the story and learned from his mistake as well.

I know there are stories of how back in the day the front break was more of a hazard than a help but to ignore it and think about dropping the break really bugs me.

A few things come to mind.. I've heard the phrase Cement head used for people like this because they are all mixed up and permently set. I just hope his son isn't to far gone in the brain washing to not learn different.

 

[trackpimp]

as an MSF instructor years ago, and track instructor for the last several years, I've encountered this many times.

Bottom line.. People learn new things at their own pace. Trying to force-feed someone something that doesn't make sense to them isn't really productive. Allowing yourself to become frustrated with it doesn't do any good either.

Some people learn by reading/being told.. Others learn by trying stuff.. Like they physically have to do it before they can grasp the concept. In a controlled setting, if you can get your buddy to try it, the light-bulb will likely come on. If not.. Maybe its just not meant to be.

 

[WarriorDog]

I always heard, but never really thought about the countersteering thing, I just rode, and all was right with the world. Until............. I took the MSF class and thought about it some more.

I made some tests by steering with only one hand on the handlebars. This made it clear for me, and was easier to discern what is going on.

I discovered something interesting. I have always pulled on the opposite side more than push in the direction of steering. Hmmmmmmmmm. It was difficult for me to tell what I was doing with both hands on the bars, but single handed was easy to tell.

I also tried one handed steering on my bicycle, and the effects were even easier to feel than on the motorcycle. Pulling felt very unstable, but pushing was stable, especially in a longer turns, but not so much when starting to steer.

Now I am concentrating on pushing in the direction of steering rather than pulling on the opposite side, but after doing it wrong, it is taking me a while to change my technique. I think it is worth the effort to improve smoothness and stability. Not really a big deal to me, just durring riding I try to concentarte on this more than before. It should become natural with practice.

And no, I keep both hands on the bars when riding. Sorry, I'm not a stunt rider.

It is not worth arguing about with your riding buddy, unless you enjoy the banter. I think many (most???) people can ride and just do what is natural, and be perfectly happy riding without really thinking about countersteering.

Thanks MSF.
Happy Riding.

Exactly,
Here's a drill for your friend to try.
Have your friend ride on a straight road without much traffic. About 20 mph should be fine. Have him put his left hand on his left hip or on his left thigh.(Have him take his left hand off the bars). Now, have him turn the handle bars to the right with his right hand on the throttle. In other words, PULL the right (throttle) side and tell me which way his bike goes. NOW, have your friend tell you what he had to do to get the bike to "right itself" and go back in a straight line. He will HAVE to PUSH the throttle (right) side in order to make the bike go back to the right.

 

[Misti]

Twist of the Wrist 2 DVD. Buy it from amazon or whatever. You will learn tons and Keith Code himself will ****-kick your friend with slow-motion and mechanical breakdowns of it all.

Here is the bit that is for your friend. It is called a No-BS Bike. (body steering and B.S.) there are a second pair of handlebars mounted on the top. no amount of shifting or leaning or weight transfer of any kind moves the bike.

the bike will only turn when the rider uses the main handlebars which are actually connected to the front tire.

when leaning into a corner the way ur friend describes he is countersteering. he just doesnt think he is. soon as he realizes this he will experience a number of benefits including:

1) increased confidence based on increased knowledge

2) a better ability to quickly put the bike into a corner and not gradually lean into it. this will give him a safer entry into corners because he can dive into the corners later and have better vision (on the street....on the track he will just get faster)

3) women will find him more attractive

here is the video:

YouTube - Keith Code's No BS Bike

additionally, the movement you get from just moving your body weight around is because your front wheel IS countersteering, just on its own because you are applying more pressure to the inside edge of the rubber.

+1 on this, good suggestions and good breakdown of the benefits.

All riders steer with counter-steering, those that argue against it simply don't realize they are counter-steering the bike. When riders "lean" into the turn they end up putting pressure on the inside bar so they are "pushing right to go right and pushing left to go left."

Send him to the Superbike School We will sort him out! I've worked with several students just like him that refused to believe in "counter-steering" after a little coaching they all believe :rockon:

We run all of our students though a specific counter-steering drill at the beginning of the schools to ensure that everyone knows and understands how to steer the bike and then another one of our drills, quick steering, works on making the motion more effective and quicker.

Tough to force someone to learn if he isn't into it. His theories on emergency
braking sound a little scary as well.

Good luck!

Misti

 

[VEGASRIDER]

This is one of the most confusing things for new riders to understand. But like others have said, your friend who rides is already doing it without even realizing it.

Rather using the word countersteering, I just simply use the word "Press" & "Lean" in the direction you want to go. Press right, lean right. But this only works if you are going fast enough. So if your friend is riding a cruiser with an upright ridiing position, he would actually be pressing forward rather than down. This is the reason why we set up cones 20 and 30 foot apart down the outside perimeter of the range to reinforce the presses.

If you are going too slow, then the rider will be turning the handlebars like a tricycle.

I go through this every week.

 

[Shinn]

I think the fact his son doesn't use a front brake is far scarier. It sounds like the father is just a stubborn old guy who doesn't want to believe physics exist. Now the son is in danger of hurting himself... emergency braking from 60mph with just rear brake, that won't end nicely.

 

[Pauly_V]

I only counter-steer to initiate a lean. Once the wheels are free from the forward gyroscopic force, I use the throttle to steer the bike. I can ride through pretty much most corners with zero bar input, once leaned over. After that, I only need one hand... my throttle hand. MSF is good, but track schools are much moar gooder!!

 

[youngy]

maybe after 35 years of riding he doesn't appreciate being shown a "beginners" manual?

 

[lonesoldier84]

I think the fact his son doesn't use a front brake is far scarier. It sounds like the father is just a stubborn old guy who doesn't want to believe physics exist. Now the son is in danger of hurting himself... emergency braking from 60mph with just rear brake, that won't end nicely.

says the guy who rides forwards.

ride backwards. trust me rear brake is all you'll ever need.

 

[McLovin]

I only counter-steer to initiate a lean. Once the wheels are free from the forward gyroscopic force, I use the throttle to steer the bike. I can ride through pretty much most corners with zero bar input, once leaned over. After that, I only need one hand... my throttle hand. MSF is good, but track schools are much moar gooder!!

Ive been messing with this method as well, and it steers better this way than any other technique ive tried. Even on the freeway you can practice this, the feeling is more like you are flying on a diagonal line directly towards your target. Otherwise it feels like you are going forward on a straight line but switching between the straight lines. So like Pauly V says, you get stuck in that gyroscopic force unless you break it with CS and then use the throttle to steer the bike. It is hard to explain in a sentence, but throttle input/steering relationship needs to be studied by every biker IMHO.

 

[stevesnj]

I was unaware of this for 5+ years of riding since this just came naturally to me. Thank's for making me think of it when I ride and creating a distraction for me.

 

[stevesnj]

maybe after 35 years of riding he doesn't appreciate being shown a "beginners" manual?

Yeh I agree, someone not listening to you after years of driving and you've been told you don't ride properly and you get mad at him...kinda narcissistic.

 

[MHS]

For the first 8 months or so of riding I didn't get the concept. I was roughly doing it, because of the MSF course and the "push right to go right..." statement. Even with the MSF course though I still didn't understand it, I was more pushing down on the bars.

At about 9 months I started really playing with it, and realized just how responsive pushing -forward- on the bar and actually slightly turning the wheel really is.


Regardless - maybe it's just the type of person I am, but if someone tells me I'm doing something wrong I'll listen to their statement and reasoning, no matter how long I've been doing it or how right I think/know I am. Open minded for the win.

 

[youngy]

Yeh I agree, someone not listening to you after years of driving and you've been told you don't ride properly and you get mad at him...kinda narcissistic.

defensive and natural

 

[Misti]

I only counter-steer to initiate a lean. Once the wheels are free from the forward gyroscopic force, I use the throttle to steer the bike. I can ride through pretty much most corners with zero bar input, once leaned over. After that, I only need one hand... my throttle hand. MSF is good, but track schools are much moar gooder!!

I agree that you use counter-steering to initiate turn in and that once you are at the lean angle you want you don't need to put any more input into the handlebars. Provided you have good throttle control, meaning that you crack on the gas asap once the bike is leaned and roll it on throughout the remainder of the turn, the bike will maintain its line. However I don't quite understand your statement about "steering" with the throttle.

Can you describe how you would "steer" a bike using just the throttle or did you just mean that once the bike is on its line you don't need to have any more inputs until it is time to steer out....

Misti

 

[expatmanxman]

This thread comes up regularly on the UK fazer forum and always gets lots of replies, it's become a bit of a standing joke.
To turn a bike you countersteer, FACT, argue all you like.
If you think countersteering is tricky to explain let's have someone have a go at the rolling cone principle for a reason why a bike goes round a corner, that's another can of worms to get into.