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Congress, Senate, Fed, Treasury and SEC

  • Thread starter Thread starter wrightme43
  • Start date Start date

Should we hang all of Congress, Senate, Fed, Treasury and the SEC?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • Yes twice

    Votes: 14 42.4%
  • Yes except for Ron Paul

    Votes: 9 27.3%
  • Duh of course

    Votes: 5 15.2%
  • No I think thats a horrible Idea and you are insane Steve

    Votes: 3 9.1%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
not to hijack--but deregulation was our downfall.

Pu-lease.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123509667125829243.html
(Yes, I know Gramm is defending his actions in this article... but I think it is more accurate than the CNN/NPR position that deregulation was our downfall)


Deregulation and the Financial Panic
Loose money and politicized mortgages are the real villains.

By PHIL GRAMM

The debate about the cause of the current crisis in our financial markets is important because the reforms implemented by Congress will be profoundly affected by what people believe caused the crisis.

If the cause was an unsustainable boom in house prices and irresponsible mortgage lending that corrupted the balance sheets of the world's financial institutions, reforming the housing credit system and correcting attendant problems in the financial system are called for. But if the fundamental structure of the financial system is flawed, a more profound restructuring is required.

I believe that a strong case can be made that the financial crisis stemmed from a confluence of two factors. The first was the unintended consequences of a monetary policy, developed to combat inventory cycle recessions in the last half of the 20th century, that was not well suited to the speculative bubble recession of 2001. The second was the politicization of mortgage lending.

The 2001 recession was brought on when a speculative bubble in the equity market burst, causing investment to collapse. But unlike previous postwar recessions, consumption and the housing industry remained strong at the trough of the recession. Critics of Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan say he held interest rates too low for too long, and in the process overstimulated the economy. That criticism does not capture what went wrong, however. The consequences of the Fed's monetary policy lay elsewhere.

In the inventory-cycle recessions experienced in the last half of the 20th century, involuntary build up of inventories produced retrenchment in the production chain. Workers were laid off and investment and consumption, including the housing sector, slumped.

In the 2001 recession, however, consumption and home building remained strong as investment collapsed. The Fed's sharp, prolonged reduction in interest rates stimulated a housing market that was already booming -- triggering six years of double-digit increases in housing prices during a period when the general inflation rate was low.

Buyers bought houses they couldn't afford, believing they could refinance in the future and benefit from the ongoing appreciation. Lenders assumed that even if everything else went wrong, properties could still be sold for more than they cost and the loan could be repaid. This mentality permeated the market from the originator to the holder of securitized mortgages, from the rating agency to the financial regulator.

Meanwhile, mortgage lending was becoming increasingly politicized. Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) requirements led regulators to foster looser underwriting and encouraged the making of more and more marginal loans. Looser underwriting standards spread beyond subprime to the whole housing market.

As Mr. Greenspan testified last October at a hearing of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, "It's instructive to go back to the early stages of the subprime market, which has essentially emerged out of CRA." It was not just that CRA and federal housing policy pressured lenders to make risky loans -- but that they gave lenders the excuse and the regulatory cover.

Countrywide Financial Corp. cloaked itself in righteousness and silenced any troubled regulator by being the first mortgage lender to sign a HUD "Declaration of Fair Lending Principles and Practices." Given privileged status by Fannie Mae as a reward for "the most flexible underwriting criteria," it became the world's largest mortgage lender -- until it became the first major casualty of the financial crisis.

The 1992 Housing Bill set quotas or "targets" that Fannie and Freddie were to achieve in meeting the housing needs of low- and moderate-income Americans. In 1995 HUD raised the primary quota for low- and moderate-income housing loans from the 30% set by Congress in 1992 to 40% in 1996 and to 42% in 1997.

By the time the housing market collapsed, Fannie and Freddie faced three quotas. The first was for mortgages to individuals with below-average income, set at 56% of their overall mortgage holdings. The second targeted families with incomes at or below 60% of area median income, set at 27% of their holdings. The third targeted geographic areas deemed to be underserved, set at 35%.

The results? In 1994, 4.5% of the mortgage market was subprime and 31% of those subprime loans were securitized. By 2006, 20.1% of the entire mortgage market was subprime and 81% of those loans were securitized. The Congressional Budget Office now estimates that GSE losses will cost $240 billion in fiscal year 2009. If this crisis proves nothing else, it proves you cannot help people by lending them more money than they can pay back.

Blinded by the experience of the postwar period, where aggregate housing prices had never declined on an annual basis, and using the last 20 years as a measure of the norm, rating agencies and regulators viewed securitized mortgages, even subprime and undocumented Alt-A mortgages, as embodying little risk. It was not that regulators were not empowered; it was that they were not alarmed.

With near universal approval of regulators world-wide, these securities were injected into the arteries of the world's financial system. When the bubble burst, the financial system lost the indispensable ingredients of confidence and trust. We all know the rest of the story.

The principal alternative to the politicization of mortgage lending and bad monetary policy as causes of the financial crisis is deregulation. How deregulation caused the crisis has never been specifically explained. Nevertheless, two laws are most often blamed: the Gramm-Leach-Bliley (GLB) Act of 1999 and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000.

GLB repealed part of the Great Depression era Glass-Steagall Act, and allowed banks, securities companies and insurance companies to affiliate under a Financial Services Holding Company. It seems clear that if GLB was the problem, the crisis would have been expected to have originated in Europe where they never had Glass-Steagall requirements to begin with. Also, the financial firms that failed in this crisis, like Lehman, were the least diversified and the ones that survived, like J.P. Morgan, were the most diversified.

Moreover, GLB didn't deregulate anything. It established the Federal Reserve as a superregulator, overseeing all Financial Services Holding Companies. All activities of financial institutions continued to be regulated on a functional basis by the regulators that had regulated those activities prior to GLB.

When no evidence was ever presented to link GLB to the financial crisis -- and when former President Bill Clinton gave a spirited defense of this law, which he signed -- proponents of the deregulation thesis turned to the Commodity Futures Modernization Act (CFMA), and specifically to credit default swaps.

Yet it is amazing how well the market for credit default swaps has functioned during the financial crisis. That market has never lost liquidity and the default rate has been low, given the general state of the underlying assets. In any case, the CFMA did not deregulate credit default swaps. All swaps were given legal certainty by clarifying that swaps were not futures, but remained subject to regulation just as before based on who issued the swap and the nature of the underlying contracts.

In reality the financial "deregulation" of the last two decades has been greatly exaggerated. As the housing crisis mounted, financial regulators had more power, larger budgets and more personnel than ever. And yet, with the notable exception of Mr. Greenspan's warning about the risk posed by the massive mortgage holdings of Fannie and Freddie, regulators seemed unalarmed as the crisis grew. There is absolutely no evidence that if financial regulators had had more resources or more authority that anything would have been different.

Since politicization of the mortgage market was a primary cause of this crisis, we should be especially careful to prevent the politicization of the banks that have been given taxpayer assistance. Did Citi really change its view on mortgage cram-downs or was it pressured? How much pressure was really applied to force Bank of America to go through with the Merrill acquisition?

Restrictions on executive compensation are good fun for politicians, but they are just one step removed from politicians telling banks who to lend to and for what. We have been down that road before, and we know where it leads.

Finally, it should give us pause in responding to the financial crisis of today to realize that this crisis itself was in part an unintended consequence of the monetary policy we employed to deal with the previous recession. Surely, unintended consequences are a real danger when the monetary base has been bloated by a doubling of the Federal Reserve's balance sheet, and the federal deficit seems destined to exceed $1.7 trillion.
 
Hey how about this. The owner of my company has been talking about it. Make all the congress and senate persons wear race suits with thier sponsers logos? At least we could tell a bit about who they are going to give money to. LOL

I still say hanging them all is best. They are down below 10% voting to not hang them all.

Anybody wanna open a Pitchfork and Torch franchise?
 
Pu-lease.

You left the end of your article off.

Mr. Gramm, a former U.S. Senator from Texas, is vice chairman of UBS Investment Bank. UBS.

That guy is double scum. A politician (HANG HIM) AND a banker! You better believe his editorial is going to paint the banking and government side of the crisis in a lovely light, and lay all the blame at the feet of the mortgage industry, what a fraking crock!

He was the one fighting tooth and nail for deregulation, and he got it, then the economy imploded, and now he's saying 'it's not deregulation's fault!'

This guy is one of the main cause of the crisis himself! He spearheaded the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, which had regulated the financial services industry. He also fought against regulation of financial derivatives. As a result of deregulation of the derivatives, they ballooned out of control (a $60 trillion dollar shadow market) over the past 8 years. I wonder how much money Mr. Gramm made during that time? I mean, of course this guy is going to say that he did didn't kill our economy. But, do some research. Don't just read editorials, look at the numbers and the laws and who supported and opposed them. Why would anyone will half a brain and the internet in front of them believe Phil Gramm had anyone's interests at heart besides his own?

This thread started with people all gung-ho to "hang" those responsible for the current economic collapse. Then, these same people are giving thanks for a Phil Gramm editorial, when Mr. Gramm is one of the driving forces behind the economic crisis to begin with! Wow! What an effective snow-job Mr. Gramm. You've got them eating out of the palm of your hand! Now you can retire to your multiple mansions and fabulous lifestyle while living off the money you stole from the american people's retirement accounts! Don't worry, if that money runs out you can ask the fed for another bailout! "Sorry I killed our economy, but I spent the billion bucks you gave me last month, I can haz more?" And they will thank you for it! :thumbup:

I apologize for ranting, and I apologize in advance for offending anyone. Except for Phil Gramm, if Mr. Gramm is offended, good! :Flip:
 
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I just read that post over on the market ticker site, too. Thanks for the link to the site, Steve.

I thought it a bit ironic that Gramm should attempt to chime in on the topic. "It wasn't me..." (as he's wiping cookie crumbs from chin and fingers)

The more I think about the r word (revolution, if you've forgotten the original notion of the thread), the sadder I get. Our civil rights have been so circumscribed that just talking about the idea can get one in trouble. We might get mad enough that it starts to seem like an option worth considering, but then any movement in that direction will get one an orange jumpsuit and a cellmate named Bubba faster than say something timely and witty.

I'm even leery of writing this post -- and being very cautious in it's writing -- as I would not want to put something out into the world that might show up as evidence against me. Think Oklahoma, think "patriot act." And no, I'm not, I am in no way, anywhere near even beginning to think like someone who would fall into that type category. No way.

But just look at the way that "protesting" in this country is "allowed" any more. Ya gotta get a permit to protest. And then you can only protest in the government-approved "protest zone." Ugh...

I get pissed just thinking about writing to my representative. I ask myself, why do it? I know that if I do take the time, all that it's going to get me is a form-letter email response saying, "thanks for your blah blah, but I'm going to do what my sponsors are paying me to do anyway..." ffffffug

I understand and commiserate with the notion of just being fed up and pissed. It's tough not to feel just absolutely defeated by the inane, convoluted, and just down right stupid ways in which the government churns out laws to protect us from ourselves.

I just want a government that takes care of the essentials: keep a standing military in place, maintain the roads, deliver clean water and take away the sewage. Stay the f out of the rest.

Reading and staying informed is good, it's vital. But I've asked this before, in other threads and I'm sure I'll ask it again: what can you really do? Buying more guns and ammo, and stockpiling peanut butter and c-rations doesn't really seem like a productive measure or response.

And how much of your current life would you be willing to forgo if things really did come to a grinding halt? How much of what you think of as "secure" in your present life could you imagine not having around or available to you?

And though the desire might be for a governmental housecleaning, what kind of real vicious, hurtful, human-against-human cruelty can you envision unfolding at the street level if our system really did take a dirtnap? I'd ask that last question because I'd suggest that the reality of any sort of revolution, what would unfold, would be much nastier, much more cruel than any of us could imagine. The psychos would just have a frickin field day.

The system has "evolved" to this, the current state of affairs where we're legislated into manageable, controlled little corners of what's called "existence." We can yell and scream all that we want but the system will just pat us on the head -- or worse -- if our screams get too loud or boisterous.

/end puzzled, confused, depressing rant
 
Perhaps I wasn't clear on my intent of posting the editorial. My point is that this is a complex issue, there are many sides to it. I disagree with the statement that deregulation is the cause on its own.

None of the participants (politicians - except Ron Paul, perhaps-, bankers, people who bought homes they couldn't afford etc) are totally innocent in this fiasco.
 
Man that is the most horrible worrisome thing about the whole deal. We can go quietly, and orderly to our doom, or fight with a slim chance of winning.

Its not good, we were offered a "republic if you can keep it." We havent kept it.

I am just some dumbass from KY. I do know that the men that built our country would at this point attempt to overthrow our government. They werent real keen on Tyranny. Then again they would probley be in jail right now or dead.

Do we fight to keep our liberties, and rights or not? Just say 1776-1963 was a good run and watch the idea of For the People and By the People die?


Benjamin Franklin: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Nov 11 1755, from the Pennsylvania Assembly's reply to
the Governor of Pennsylvania.)
Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and
better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T.
Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)
John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self
defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)
George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the
people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than
99% of them [guns] by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very
atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference [crime]. When firearms go, all goes,
we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)
George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot,
Debates at 380)
Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in
almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)
George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent
Chronicle.)
Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers,
334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950) James Madison:[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of
other countries, whose people are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)
 
George Mason: "I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people." (Elliott,
Debates, 425-426)
Richard Henry Lee: "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and
include all men capable of bearing arms." (Additional letters from the Federal Farmer, at 169, 1788)
James Madison: "A WELL REGULATED militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the
best and most natural defense of a free country." (1st Annals of Congress, at 434, June 8th 1789,
emphasis added.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Back in the 18th century, a "regular" army meant an army that had
standard military equipment. So a "well regulated" army was simply one that was "well equipped." It
does NOT refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term "STANDING Army"
to describe a professional army. THEREFORE, "a well regulated militia" only means a well equipped
militia. It does not imply the modern meaning of "regulated," which means controlled or administered
by some superior entity. Federal control over the militia comes from other parts of the Constitution,
but not from the second amendment. (my personal opinion)
Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates at 185)
Alexander Hamilton:[SIZE=+1] [/SIZE]"...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
(Federalist Paper #29) "Little more can be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed
and equipped." (Id) {responding to the claim that the militia itself could threaten liberty}" There is
something so far-fetched, and so extravagant in the idea of danger of liberty from the militia that one
is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or raillery (mockery). (Id)
 
Here is the thing.

If our Government was operating in the best intrests of the people, and performing its duties in a manner that expressed the will of the people, NONE NONE NONE of us would be upset enough to consider armed revolution and the execution of the people in washington. It is not a thought to be even entertained except under great duress. I know that I and most other people would much rather go to work, come home, spend time with our families, live life, and grow old with out any thought of revolution.

I know you know history man. I know you are smart. We dont agree on everything and that is 100% fine with me. I can and know you can respect other viewpoints.

When people in the past have allowed thier Government to become what ours has become the end result is mass graves, slavery, despair, destruction, death, and war.

I know Germany is used alot but damnit the Nazi party was ELECTED!!!!! It didnt sieze power in a coup, they calmly went to the ballot box and the results of that are plain to see.

Do we wait untill those who dissent are rounded up and silenced? Do we turn in our only means of defense from tyranny?

8% now in this stupid little unscientific poll are against hanging the lot, maybe one more that is saying figuratively not literally.
 
Fruitless were all the entreaties, arguments, and eloquence of an illustrious band of the most distinguished peers, and commoners, who nobly and strenuously asserted the justice of our cause, to stay, or even to mitigate the heedless fury with which these accumulated and unexampled outrages were hurried on. -- equally fruitless was the interference of the city of London, of Bristol, and many other respectable towns in our favor. Parliament adopted an insidious manoeuvre calculated to divide us, to establish a perpetual auction of taxations where colony should bid against colony, all of them uninformed what ransom would redeem their lives; and thus to extort from us, at the point of the bayonet, the unknown sums that should be sufficient to gratify, if possible to gratify, ministerial rapacity, with the miserable indulgence left to us of raising, in our own mode, the prescribed tribute. What terms more rigid and humiliating could have been dictated by remorseless victors to conquered enemies? in our circumstances to accept them, would be to deserve them.



I will post the whole thing soon, but that is spot on.
 
We(2) are reduced to the alternative of chusing an unconditional submission to the tyranny of irritated ministers, or resistance by force. -- The latter is our choice. -- We have counted the cost of this contest, and find nothing so dreadful as voluntary slavery. -- Honour, justice, and humanity, forbid us tamely to surrender that freedom which we received from our gallant ancestors, and which our innocent posterity have a right to receive from us. We cannot endure the infamy and guilt of resigning succeeding generations to that wretchedness which inevitably awaits them, if we basely entail hereditary bondage upon them.
 
Here is a little piece of New Hampsires' bill of rights. Article 10

Whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
 
How about a chunk from my home state. Kentucky. Our KY constition.

section one of.

All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their peace, safety, happiness and the protection of property. For the advancement of these ends, they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish their government in such manner as they may deem proper.
 
Tennesse steps up with thier bill of rights as well, also North Carolina uses the exact same wording.

That government being instituted for the common benefit, the doctrine of non-resistance against arbitrary power and oppression is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."
 
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.



Either the men that risked thier lives, children, livelyhood, and property were dead wrong, or they were right on the money.

mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
 
Dang it! I didn't see the "twice" selection. I just saw "Yes" and and that's all I needed to see.

First we hang em, then we tattoo em, and then we kill em. - YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure they would respond...

I say we let em go. NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

[Movie] sound familiar?
 
I don't think we should have a REVolution, that's just going around in circles.

I think we need to have an EVolution, and move past this type of tyrannical government, and all of the other types that we see around the world today.
 
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If we run into such [government] debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses; and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes; have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-sufferers."
Thomas Jefferson, 1816
 
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.



Either the men that risked thier lives, children, livelyhood, and property were dead wrong, or they were right on the money.

mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

IMHO, one of the most fundamental problems we have is that people misunderstand that a right to the pursuit of happiness is not a right to happiness.

A quick trend analysis of the rising number of people (voters) who do not pay income taxes (of whom many receive or will soon receive "tax cuts" (aka, handouts)) indicates they could one day outnumber the people who do pay taxes. That is a tipping point for voters, one that could put us on a permanent track towards being a full-blown welfare state. A fiscal conservative majority would not get elected again until all was lost.
 
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