Catastrophic engine damage/noise?

[melikefazer]

Hi all, first time poster.

I have this issue with the bike, it only has 25000kms and I’ve only had it about a month, only put 1000kms or less on it. I’ve changed oil and oil filter, spark plugs and re-done the spark plug cap connections.

It was running fine after all of this until, it wasn’t. I was on the highway slowing down to exit, when it suddenly felt and sounded a bit weird, and then this issue had happened.

I pulled over and turned it off immediately as it sounds so bad but yeah, I’m at a bit of a loss. It’s my first bike, I’m a new rider and I wasn’t riding it hard. I’ve read a lot and compared against other people’s bikes and the sounds they make online. Obvious one people like to throw out is the cam chain tensioner. I’ve ordered an OEM one and will replace it but to be honest, I think it’s much worse as the sound is so terrible.

I got a mechanics stethoscope and touched it to the cam chain tensioner and it did feel like the cam chain was running a bit rough. I sprayed some soapy water around the exhaust headers and didn’t see much. Should I have another check of the spark plugs and caps? Any other troubleshooting I should be doing?
I’ve checked the oil via the dipstick and it’s of a good and clean level, no metal in there. I also opened the timing/oil pump cover and the cam chain seemed tight with no slack.

When I compare it to other peoples bikes, FZ6s or R6s it seems that it’s most like what people describe as a spun rod bearing. So yeah, am I f****d and bought a lemon?

So yeah, please help me out and share thoughts…

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Dc-Zy4naS0YERwZPFKiyW6PMaRQ63QED/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That's not a cam chain slapping around..

Almost sounds like a loose spark plug.

Spun bearings on an FZ are pretty much unheard of. Of course low/no oil can cause it
but you've put some miles on it, with oil, so if the PO ran it low on oil, it likely would have shown
up by now.

Couple things, pull the oil filter, split it open and look for any metal.
I'd pull the spark plugs, check them and also do at least a compression test.

Depending on what you find there, a leak down test and possibly use a bore scope
to look down any low compression cylinder.

You don't need soapy water to spray on the header near the head to see if
the cylinder is working properly. If it's firing/working properly- the water will
"fizzle off" quickly, indicating the cylinder is firing/making power..

.

 

[melikefazer]

Hey, thanks for the response. I won’t replace the tensioner then, I didn’t think it was likely that anyways. Sounds way too dramatic! I’ve driven it a fair bit and I noticed it was quite vibey from 3k rpm upwards so I don’t know if that’s related?

This led to me changing the spark plugs (which probably needed to be done anyway) and re-doing the spark plug caps as advised on this forum to eliminate vibration.

I’ll double check the spark plugs and will have to get a compression testing kit to check that, and will go from there. I hope it’s not a spun rod bearing - just upon doing some googling I found mostly R6 engines producing the exact same sound, and people in agreement that a spun rod bearing was the issue.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That engine isn't broken in yet...

However that noise is definitly NOT normal...

.

 

[melikefazer]

Well, I’m in Europe and it’s late now, so I’ll get on it tomorrow. Here’s praying it’s going to not be something major and I’ve just overlooked something.

 

[Gary in NJ]

I like the lose spark theory…especially since you had recently changed your plugs.

I spun a bearing in a Neon RT about 25 years ago during an autoX event. Sounded nothing like that. In fact, it could only be heard while the engine was under load. It takes a lot of effort to ruin a bearing, like an over rev or prolonged operations at redline.

 

[grahammarsden]

The only thing I can say is that that doesn't sound as bad as when my FZ6 engine lost a bottom bearing, but it doesn't sound great

 

[melikefazer]

Hi guys, thanks all for your responses. So I got to it this morning and checked all the plugs, loosened them off and retorqued. All was fine bar one plug which looked like it had a tiny bit of oil on the thread. I decided as this didn't correct the sound, to remove the oil filter and have a look at the state of the oil inside.

Once I did this, (to me) it seems clear that the engine is caput... apologies for my butchering of the oil filter, I just don't have access to a workshop or vice to cleanly cut the filter in half. So yeah, as you can see from the photos, it seems apparent that there are gold sparkles all through the oil in the filter. Obviously there will be some metal shavings from where I cut the filter, but once I had paper element exposed, the oil coming from there was pretty cloudy, and contaminated with plenty of gold looking flakes.

Please let me know your thoughts, but yeah, I guess this is catastrophic engine damage. Only had the bike a month, first big bike, had my license about 2 months. Fun times...

I suppose my options now are: buy a second hand engine and hope it's a good one, swap the engines out, or chalk it off as a major loss and sell the bike for parts - buy something else... I have already seen another engine close by to where I live for about €690, so that is an option. Other than fluids, filters, probably would replace the chain and sprockets while I'm at it, what gaskets would I need to buy? Is this job doable without tons of experience working on bikes? I am semi handy, and work a technician on offshore wind turbines so have some mechanical skills, as well as having been an electrician for over 10 years (if that helps). I could probably get a friend to help me drop the engine out/ install the new one.

I just don't want to commit to this yet without getting further advice. Would be crap to buy another engine, and end up buying another lemon and wasting yet more cash...

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[trepetti]

Ouch. That sure does look like bearing material in the oil. I believe that, sadly, you found the problem.

 

[Gary in NJ]

I agree that it does look like a bearing has disintegrated. The only other thing I can think of is the clutch, however I’d expect to see a lot of gray material as well.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sure looks like bearing "anti-seize" .

I think you can pull the oil pan with the engine still installed.

As well, you should be able to access the lower connecting rod caps-
Pull and inspect/confirm...

*Someone else please chime in to confirm or advise on this..

Should the engine need to be replaced, folks here have done so and posted not terribly bad,
time consuming. You sound to be up to the task..

Your bike looks to be in great shape. I suspect a new (used) engine would be worth it.
Gasket wise needed, exhaust (at the head) would be needed, nothing else I can think of...


.

 

[melikefazer]

Yeah, I mean at this point I'm pretty sure the engine is finished. I may pull the sump tomorrow - still haven't drained the bike of oil completely. My guess is that the previous owner didn't ride it much, and didn't store it correctly, so certain parts started to deteriorate, and then bang, a month after I've had it, oil changes done etc, bike falls apart.

I'm gonna sit with it for a while, keep reading and getting advice from this forum etc, and then decide how best to proceed in the coming week or two. I can't imagine that the engine I've seen will go in a rush and if it does, I'll find another. That seems the best course of action at the moment. In a strange way, I feel more at ease now I'm more resigned to that fact that it seems the engine is finished. When I had hope, I felt worse lol...

So please, anyone who has further thoughts on it, please share them. And if you've swapped an engine on one of the before, please share any tips and advice you have. Thanks.

 

[grahammarsden]

Here's a thing to try:

On the cam chain cover on the right hand side, there's a slotted circular plug cap. Remove that and you'll find a bolt head underneath.

If you put a socket on that, you can turn the engine over manually (clockwise only, the Yamaha manual actually has this wrong!) and see what happens when you rotate the crank shaft.

It's certainly possible to replace the engine, that's what I got someone to do when mine died (I wasn't confident enough to do the work myself), alternatively you can probably get a fair proportion of the purchase price back by parting the bike out.

 

[Gary in NJ]

In reviewing the FSM manual and looking at my spare engine, I believe that Scott is correct that the bearing shells can be replaced by removing the oil pan. With that said - your engine destroyed one or more bearings so I wouldn't be surprised if the crank itself is scored/damaged. You won't know until you look....worth the look in my opinion. The lower shells are easy to replace by simply removing the main caps. You will likely need to remove the CCT so you can create enough of a gap between the crank and the upper shells so you can rotate the upper shell for removal. It's actually a very simple swap-out...IF the crank is usable. Use of plastigauge will determine the correct shells for replacement.

 

[melikefazer]

Ok, thanks guys. So, if I get the time in the coming days I’ll drain the rest of the oil and drop the sump. Have a little poke around and see what I find - really appreciate all the tips.

So if the cam shaft isn’t too scored, I might be able to just replace the bearing shell/shells and then see how that goes? You mentioned removing the CCT so I can get the shells out - I suppose i should cable tie the cam chain in place to stop it slipping as i try to wiggle them out (if at all possible).

Also, in the event that the cam shaft is scored, would it be worth finding a used crank shaft and replacing it? I know this is all a lot of work, and hopefully it doesn’t come to that, but yeah. How deep does the rabbit hole go? I suppose replacing the crank shaft is whole engine removal and taking it all apart… new engine then is the better option I guess.

As you can imagine, I’ve been pretty stressed with the whole situation, but haven’t been able to act on it sooner as I had a close family members funeral back in the UK, then got sick for a week upon my return to NL! Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[Gary in NJ]

It’s the Crank shaft that would be damaged, not the cam shaft(s)…although the cams could be damaged from the metal circulating through the engine (the bearing are soft material). I’d focus on inspection of the Crank shaft for now.

A crank swap would require splitting the case

 

[melikefazer]

I edited it to reflect the mistake, I know it’s the crank shaft. Just easy to make a mistake when writing about cams and cranks.

Yeah, I’ll take a look when I have the time and hope I get a bit of luck. Splitting the case to replace the crank shaft sounds like a hell of a lot of work. I’ll be pulling out my Haynes manual now. Thanks.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

And to add to Garys post, you can replace both the upper and lower connecting rod bearings with the crank installed.

Takes some finagling but do-able.

I don't see any reason to mess with the CCT. Just always turn the crank clockwise as you access each rod.
A peek at the mains for damage wouldn't hurt either.

I'd pull a cap, inspect, then put it back so you can rotate the crank for the next cylinder W/O the rod dangling/getting caught up.

.

 

[melikefazer]

Hey guys, so basically I’ve spent the afternoon tearing down the bike to view the crank shaft. I’ve found that as suspected, cylinder 4 has spun a bearing.

I’ve managed to get the bearing out and can few the journal. It seems scored but no deep gouges etc. I say I managed to get the bearing out, only one half. The other half must have disintegrated.

Obviously coming this far, and having seen the rest of the condition of the engine, it seems a shame to give up, but I’m not entirely sure it will be worth it or wise to replace the bearing on this crankshaft.

Please let me know your thoughts. It’s not that easy to take decent photos as you can imagine but I’ll try and take a few more.

 

[melikefazer]

So I did manage to get the other side of the bearing off after thing it had disintegrated. You can see the journal surface now. I guess it’s too damaged to replace the bearing without a rebuild?