Brake pads, squealing and related questions

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just last night realized that the shop manual states that all brake hose related washers around the banjos (e.g. 7, including the one to the MC, if I were unhooking that) need to be replaced whenever the calipers are removed.

Yea or nay? No local shops open around today, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to finally do this if I need to get those washers.

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

You can usually get by without new ones, just torque to spec's and keep an eye on it (or just replace them).

The copper ones seems to seal much better than the steel washers..

 

[FinalImpact]

Ive never seen steel ones. Aluminum and copper are both so soft if you double seat them, they conform to the new location.
Double seat: torque to spec, loosen and torque to spec.


Oh and not that anyone here would do this but Do Not Vise Grip a hose to keep it from leaking as it induces failure!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Ive never seen steel ones. Aluminum and copper are both so soft if you double seat them, they conform to the new location.

I have several, might be used for something else, but not on a hydraulic system.

Actually got them for free from my local private owned shop (when I went to order new stock ones). Guess that's why they were free...

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Happy 4th of July!

It's raining all week here in Atlanta, so I'm taking the time to FINALLY do this repair.

Question re: how much to pump out the pistons...

I've taken Townsend's advice and gotten the pistons as close and evenly pumped out here (right side only -- will brace and do left caliper next)...

View attachment 49020

Do I need to 1/2 that gap or are the pistons close to coming out?

Side note -- the bottom two pistons on each caliper are the last to come out. Don't even move until I've braced the top two.

Thanks. Have a safe holiday!

nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Happy 4th of July!

It's raining all week here in Atlanta, so I'm taking the time to FINALLY do this repair.

Question re: how much to pump out the pistons...

I've taken Townsend's advice and gotten the pistons as close and evenly pumped out here (right side only -- will brace and do left caliper next)...

View attachment 49020

Do I need to 1/2 that gap or are the pistons close to coming out?

Side note -- the bottom two pistons on each caliper are the last to come out. Don't even move until I've braced the top two.

Thanks. Have a safe holiday!

nthdegreeburns

You can keep pumping if you want but as long as you have an air compressor I wouldn't worry about it.

You'll find, to remove one piston, the opposite piston has to be at least half ways IN for it to clear (so you'll be pushing one side back in anyways).

IMHO, (again as long as you have an air compressor), just pull the caliper now and keep the brake fluid off the rest of the bike as it WILL GET MESSY.

Have a jar/container ready to catch what comes out of the line..

What your doing now, once done, you'll say, that wasn't hard at all! You may be cursing doing the bleeding but that's later...

BTW, the order they come out doesn't make a difference. The really sticky ones will likley be last just because!!! The air compressor will blow it out, again, stuff a rag over it because when it comes loose, it will, with force... Just get a good seal over the orifice (the angle cut ,rubber tipped end, on the blower is about a must..)

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Ugh...what a crap experience.

First, there will be a video of some of what I did. At some point I just have up trying to document what I was doing. It was a royal pain in the ass at the end.

The calipers came off fine without too much of a mess. I barely put a drop in either of the bottles zip tied to the front fork.

Air compressor was a little more messy. I had it set to 90psi -- the max for the included blower attachment. It was plenty to move the pistons. I just didn't realize how much brake fluid would come out when I hit the compressor. I also didn't think for a lick when I tried to push pistons back in that still had fluid behind them. Hello, mess.

Anyway -- Townsend's compressor trick didn't work for me because my kit had no such extension. I went by the manual's method and pushed out left side pistons then right side. Used a few pieces of a wooden paint stirrer to maneuver them.

One of the calipers (dammit I forgot which one) had a really sticky small piston. I made a mess playing Whack-A-Piston with trying to coax it out. Eventually I made it, but I'd exceeded the bounds of the plastic tray I'd been using to catch brake fluid.

Seals were easiest of the night. Cleaned everything and replaced the seals in each caliper. Townsend -- I skipped that pink grease like you recommended. The pistons went back in fine when all was said and done.

Snagged my torque wrench and got the calipers and banjos put back on per the manual torque spec. Filled up the reservoir (it was just barely over the pinhole at this point) and gave it a few pumps to get started

Time for the Mityvac...

Mityvac, thank you. Thank you for kinking your less than optimally sized hoses in the retail package such that they interfere with the vacuum, for including not one but two terrible ways to hook into an OEM bleeder valve and for putting the vacuum release right next to the trigger so resting my hand between pumps ends up hitting said release and negating my hard work.

Needless to say, this didn't go so well. Left caliper never seemed to maintain a good vacuum, and the kinks in the main hose made observing air nearly impossible. I pumped it 3-4 times before ever seeing the MC go down. I hassled with this 4-5 more cycles before I THINK I saw clear air free fluid. Thankfully, the right caliper kept a decent seal and emptied the MC 3 times. Again, kinks in the hose made identifying air nigh impossible.

It was midnight (I skipped fireworks in the 'hood doing this) when I decided to clean up and let the bike sit overnight. I topped off the MC and proceeded to lose one of the MC screws on the floor for 40 minutes. Finally found the screw, got the MC closed and, before locking of the garage, spun the front wheel...

...and it still feels like it's dragging. SMH, going to bed.

So...

Did I not get all the air out?

Did I do something wrong with the seals?

Is it something with the MC?

I'll video the state of the wheel tomorrow and post the air compressor art film, "Liquide de frein partout" (google translate will help with that joke). ;-)

Cheers. It's Friday morning.

nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

yep, there's fluid inside the calipers, actually not a terribly lot but pushing back out thru a small hole, seems like a lot.

My air tool I bought separatly, it didn't come in a kit.

You did put the pistons back in with the flat part of the pistons facing inward toward the caliper body, ie, the dished part showing? I'm assuming the pistons were cleaned and are now spotless. I'm also assuming the inside of the calipers as well as the ring groves are spotless, no corrosion what so ever?

Re air in the system, your brakes should feel the same as before (lever/pressure wise), if their spongy, there's likely air still in the system.

After breakfest, jack up the front end and give her a hard spin. It should be quite a bit better.

If its still dragging badly start looking at the rotors for any run out. The spec's are in the manual. If you set the steering to one side, clamp a short piece coat hanger to a short stool and then place it super close to the rotor.
Spin the rotor with the hanger end right there, if its warped you should be able to see it move in and out. Check the entire contact area too. Right and left rotors of course.

I think I posted earier, a way to check if there's still air in one line, go for a ride and stop fairly hard quickly. CAREFULLY, touch both front rotors. They should be the same temp. If one is cooler than the other, one obviously not grabbing as hard as the other(air in one side). Also try stopping using the rear brake only and feel the front rotors again, they should both be cool (if their not dragging).

BTW, What also helps to flush air out of the system, overnight, turn the steering to the left, on the kick stand. Zip tie/bungee the lever with the front brakes on, moderate pressure. Leave it this way over night, any little air bubbles stuck in the system generally comes out. Gently tapping the calipers and MC some doesn't hurt either.

When I did mine, I gave it another quick bleed the next day, just to make sure.. Now I have two separate SS braided lines going direct to each caliper so I would NOT have an issues with air being trapped in the hoop that goes over the fender,

If you suspect there's air in the hoop, you may have to un-bolt the caliper from the fork and stuff a piece of wood (or something) inbetween the pistons so they don't get spit out. Try bleeding the caliper with the caliper higher and lower (I don't know which would work better) watching for any air coming out. (Please post if you do this and which method works better)

Good luck

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Update after the whole shebang...

In keeping with the theme of "I'm a motorcycle newb and this is my story" video series, 15 minutes of commentary / footage from the piston seal replacement...

[vimeo]69883263[/vimeo]

If you're a tl;dr type, here's the summary...

• Got the piston seals changed
• Had problems with the Mityvac
• Front wheel rotation is 1.5 - 2 turn vs. .25 turn now
• Some warmth on left front rotor (barely noticeable) after rear brake only ride
• Front brake lever is pretty spongy

I need to figure out what to do next for the front brake, but at least it's not dragging noticeably now. Air or (hopefully not) water in the lines? Thoughts?

Thanks for following along. Hope it's been informative.

nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

From 1/4 spin to 2 full spins, is great, your fine in that department. Very good video/editiing, etc too. A little more when actually pulling and replacing the actual seals would be nice.

Re the Mity vac, those pointy little guys are NOT designed to used in bleeding brakes.

That large cap is the correct tool. With that said, besides what fittings came in my aluminum, (professional kit, with case), I had some other fittings left over from another bleeder kit.

Re movement of the wrench when bleeding, the amount of room you have is normal. There's just enough to snug it down and break it loose(thank you yamaha).

Your also NOT going to get a solid seal, (even with the correct fitting rubber boot) as once the bleeder is cracked, you'll suck air thru the threads. You can put teflon tape on the threads to slow it down, but its just something to deal with, your pulling vacuum ALSO thru THOSE THREADS... (told you you'd have fun bleeding the system!)

I have about the similar hoses you do but being in a case they didn't kink. I would think warming them up in very warm water, then laying a book(etc) on the kink, would pull out that kink.

My Mity vac is very different from yours. Besides being aluminum, the presure realease isn't in the way of the main lever. I also have mine set up as to where I literally bolt it to an adjacent, low stool, so its not flopping about, spilling the container, etc. I don't see any way of making that set up work on your Mity Vac.

 

[nthdegreeburns]

From 1/4 spin to 2 full spins, is great, your fine in that department. Very good video/editiing, etc too. A little more when actually pulling and replacing the actual seals would be nice.

Thanks! Yeah -- I realized that last night re: the actual seal removal / replacement. It was late, and the light was really bad. I wish I'd gotten more video shot of the actual process.

Your also NOT going to get a solid seal, (even with the correct fitting rubber boot) as once the bleeder is cracked, you'll suck air thru the threads. You can put teflon tape on the threads to slow it down, but its just something to deal with, your pulling vacuum ALSO thru THOSE THREADS... (told you you'd have fun bleeding the system!)

Question is -- did I use the vacuum pump the right way? I never had a solid stream of fluid come down the hose pulled from the MC. I knew I was getting rid of air, but I figured I'd get full fluid flow at some point. Which makes me wonder if I've still got air in the lines since the front brake doesn't seem firm at all compared to my first bleed.

nthdegreeburns

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks! Yeah -- I realized that last night re: the actual seal removal / replacement. It was late, and the light was really bad. I wish I'd gotten more video shot of the actual process.



Question is -- did I use the vacuum pump the right way? I never had a solid stream of fluid come down the hose pulled from the MC. I knew I was getting rid of air, but I figured I'd get full fluid flow at some point. Which makes me wonder if I've still got air in the lines since the front brake doesn't seem firm at all compared to my first bleed.

nthdegreeburns

Once you get close, keep the pressure high(20-25 if possible) and just crack it loose, you want to pull more from the MC than the threads..

It is very possible you have air lodged at the top of the hoop. I don't know the secret to removing it, I would think, setting the caliper (with the hoop)higher (then bleed) and again maybe lower(then bleed) would help dislodge any air that May,be stuck in that hoop...

Your Motion Pro tool should work the same as it did BEFORE you disassembled the unit (ie, the amount of bubbles, etc, coming out).



If you have a helper, you can also do a regular bleed:

Pump the lever up, hold pressure on it, gently open the caliper nipple and CLOSE BEFORE the lever hits the grip. (no Mity Vac). That will generally push fluid and no air (if there's no air)

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Anyone have any ideas re: what Townsend is talking about? Confirming air has been removed from the top hoop?

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

 

[nthdegreeburns]

This may all be moot. I had zip tied the brake level in a semi depressed state overnight (2nd time since the piston seal change). I had also tapped on all the lines, the MC and the calipers.

I ALMOST forgot to cut the zip tie before going to bed (another 24 hours before I'd have gotten home from work to remove it), and I ran downstairs to the garage to cut it.

I THINK the firmness of the properly bled front brakes is back. I'll know more tomorrow when I can ride.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Anyone have any ideas re: what Townsend is talking about? Confirming air has been removed from the top hoop?

Thanks,
nthdegreeburns

You can address me directly. I don't bite. Scott, please.. (Its in my signature so its not hard to remember)


Your brake line, the one caliper line that one goes from the right caliper, to the left caliper, OVER THE FRONT FENDER.

That is the hoop I'm talking about. Its possible AIR is TRAPPED at the top (inside) that hoop.

Tieing that lever applied overnight should help too.

 

[nthdegreeburns]

You can address me directly. I don't bite. Scott, please.. (Its in my signature so its not hard to remember)

LOL -- no -- what I meant was -- does anyone know of a trick like you were talking about to empty that hoop of air. Thx, Scott.

Anyway -- I'm excited to try the bike this evening (barring more rain) since the overnight lever action helped (see above).

Cheers!

nthdegreeburns

 

[motojoe122]

When I changed my front brake pads, I did a combination of conventional method and pumping the lever, squeezing and cracking the bleeder open enough to have to squeeze the lever tightly to get fluid to come out slowly. I think that did the trick to get the air out of the cross-over line of the hose. Also, bleed the front brake lever side caliper first, since it is the "furthest" away from the master cylinder.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

When I changed my front brake pads, I did a combination of conventional method and pumping the lever, squeezing and cracking the bleeder open enough to have to squeeze the lever tightly to get fluid to come out slowly. I think that did the trick to get the air out of the cross-over line of the hose. Also, bleed the front brake lever side caliper first, since it is the "furthest" away from the master cylinder.

Question, did you have air in your lines, or just flushing /changing fluid? (Just a brake pad change wouldn't necessarily warrant a drain the system, add new fluid and bleed, just curious )

I ask as he's starting with a completly dry system. I had the same issue back in 1986 with a Honda VT1100, same brake line over the fender set up. I could rever get it to bleed out fully (no Mity vac, same bleeding your recommending) and brought it to the shop. Of course they wouldn't tell me the secret... Maybe the reverse bleeding I've read about (but NOT done) on the this forum..

 

[nthdegreeburns]

Rode 50 miles yesterday round trip to volunteer to wash greyhounds (retired racers). It was mostly 50mph highways.

Had no issues stopping with the front brakes or sticking. Rotors weren't unevenly warm, and I had no front vibration like I did before the caliper seals were done.

I actually had to hit the front brakes hard when fat white trash woman in her quad cab changed lanes right next to me. I'm still getting used to rider awareness / tactics, but I hit the front brakes hard enough to throw me forward a little with no ill effects after. Fatty Ray Jesup apologize profusely as I sped past her and then tailgated me until I turned.

I finished the day getting caught in my first rain storm, and I felt the brakes did fine. I DID err on the side of caution and stop at a gas station for a little bit. Talked to Mormon ladies getting gas.

Thanks to everyone here who has assisted with this issue. Y'all have been great, especially Townsend (Scott).

Regards,
nthdegreeburns


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