What we have accomplished in Iraq

[Hellgate]

The UN is in Iraq, worked with a Canadian LTC who was the UNAMI rep.

There are many, many UN programs in place via NGO, Non-Governmental Organizations.

Chemical artillery rounds were often used early in the war as secondary explosives to "slime" an IED area. 152mm shells were daisy chained in with normal HE 152mm shell. The good thing was most of the rounds were so old they didn't go off. That and the bomb builders were really hit and miss with triggers.

So yes there were chemical rounds found, seldom reported, and yes the UN is there but not in an overt manner, behind the sences. Heck I even got to drive in a UN Land Cruiser one day. Very cool, up armored, turbo diesel with a Duke like device and really a cool snorkel kit.

 

[wrightme43]

Originally Posted by wrightme43
Ok,

On the England and France note. They have nuclear powered ballistic missle submarines, and excellent air power, as does Russia.
And how about India, Pakistan, Israil and north Korea? You did not know that they too have a nuclear weapon? Do not attack them! Will shower with bombs booo ))))
)))
read this -> Ten Myths About Nuclear Weapons, by David Krieger and Angela McCracken, July 7, 2003



Did you notice I said ballistic missle submarines? India, Pakistan, and N. Korea do not have suffiecent delivery devices. Having a weapon and being able to use it are two different things.


Originally Posted by wrightme43
The video of America killing 84,000 children is bullcrap. Its not true.:
А You believe, that nobody die from the peace population? And the majority of people rejoiced to arrival of the American army?
You know why bush did not to be won? Because it is war with the population, guerrilla war, the most difficult war. I know - in chechnya(in Russia) was as. Though why I tell a word "war". It not war, Nobody declared war to states. This intervention in affairs of the sovereign state if to name it just as names this American TV speaking about problems on the Caucasus

i dont care, I am not the ardent patriot of my country. Irritates, as on similar problems of our countries to a miscellaneous makes comments on your government - kosovo vs osetia, a difference only that in southern osetia there live russian citizens. The Chechen Republic and iraq. But in Chechen Republic live rus. citizens and it is territory of the Russian federation. but if usa accepts independence kosovo - allright! there are no problems. And just if Russia accepts independence of South Ossetia - tut-tut! It contradicts arrangements. About Chechen Republic They told bullЩЕТ

These are two differnt things.

One the children video is insanity. Just plain propaganda and nothing more.

On South Ossetia, we agree the talking heads on the news go Tutt Tutt, the governments say this that and the other but nothing happens. I dont know hardly anything about what happened, why it happened, how it happened. I just dont know anything about it.

On Iraq, I can give you in the words of the Iraqi people and in thier actions that most of them are much much happier, safer, calmer, and they have democracy and freedoms they never had under Saddam.

I am going to take a skip on the people tossed off roofs, electrocuted in the genitals, bones broken, raped, burned with clothes irons, forced to watch as thier families are raped, and then killed, and all the rest.

Thats stopped now, it stopped when Canadian, American, English, Austrailian, and New Zealanders made it stop, and quite a few of them died and many more were horribley wounded.


On that note, what exactly would of happened to a man that threw his shoes at Saddam? His family? What would of happened to them?

 

[abraxas]

How can it be up to the iraqi people, under a hostile occupying force, with it's own agenda? Most nations don't get this democracy thing right under good conditions? Democracy and freedom in war savaged lands are not the same as american apple pie.

Iraq has been raped, pillaged and utterly destroyed, depleted uranium is killing both citizens and the US soldiers, and ill do for centuries to come. How can that be positive in any way?

Oil is a major reason, but it could not end there. What i see more than anything is a total rape of the AMERICAN people.

This war has cost trillions .... that money hasn't left america, it's just moved upwards, out of your hands and into theirs. The guns, the cars, tanks, helicopters, munitions, fuel and food .... made some people very VERY wealthy. And the rest of the world a lot poorer.

Respect to those soldiers who either made a moral decision, or those who forced by poverty and no real jobs back home, gave if not their lives, then certainly their innocense to fight for thir country. That is noble under any circumstances. And i am smart enough to differentiate between the american people, and the american govt, and it's cia-esque limbs.

Every body has lost this war, most of all the iraqi people. Saddam was a little ... extreme. But it was the US who gave him the chemicals that the US eventually hung him for using. And frankly he did a better job of running THAT country.

 

[FancaR]

Originally Posted by wrightme43
The UN (Russia is a member) stated repeatedly that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. So that shoots one part of the argument down.
But! UN Not supported this operation in Iraq. its initiative by usa government , by the way where weapons? Myth

Resolution 1441 specifically stated:

• That Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops in 1991.

• That \"...false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations

Russia and France both voted against the war in Iraq based on huge huge huge illegal, contracts with Iraqs Bathist government.

(there isnt room in here to post everything in one post so it may take a few) I get the distinct feeling I am wasting my time though. It seems what you are really arguing is a justification for the invasion of Georgia. Which A. has nothing to do with this thread. B. was a single country invading another country. C. had no UN mandate or resolutions pending, or in violation of.

But here goes anyway, since I am having a horrible day and this gives me something to do.

In answer to the weapons of mass destruction.

We removed 550 tons of yellowcake uranium from Iraq.

I guess I could go into all the document proof, of Russian trained Iraqi security officers, and equiptment.

I could also go into the very strong evidence of Russian involvment in the movement of Iraqi WMD into Syria.

But all the same the United Nations has not given the permission to this operation. Weapons of mass destruction are not present. What or still the distinct reasons too are not present. It is necessary - to plant one there the management and to drive from Iraq cheap fuel. After all in the United States gasoline one of the cheapest in the world, not including such countries as Rurkmenistan, where gasoline is cheaper than potable water. Also that is necessary that to do to support such prices as Americans simply so will not allow them to lift upwards.

Russia-Georgia Relations
(More low can not read, if this theme is not interesting to you)

I do not need to justify for anybody, I have to it no any direct relation. Probably you also do not know, but Russia did not interfere in Georgia. Russia always had armies in territory of Georgia. It is territory of South Ossetia where more precisely and now there are our armies. But Georgians consider it as the territory and in every possible way many years (almost 20 years since they became the independent state) survive therefrom the Ossetin. There there live citizens of the Russian federation - the Osset people, the same as behind mountain pass in northern Ossetia which the Georgian government always wished to exterminate which for a night have showered with rockets of system Grad from the Georgian territory. Attack on a Tskhinvali city . (Bombardment shots showed also your mass media, only ostensibly it is Russian fire at a Gorgian Gori city. In constitutions of any country it is written about protection of the citizens. I do not think that America would arrive as that differently if who or began to destroy a city in which there would be American citizens. Your government would not began to wait what that there for what decisions that of people who in general poorly understand a problem essence. I have nothing against the Georgian, good kind cheerful people, many Georgian lives in Russia. After all there lived many years in one state till 1991.

By the way in southern Osetia have found that proof that the Georgian soldiers were trained by the American instructors. Mountains of Negroes with the American documents. The American weapon.

 

[wrightme43]

Well that is something we can agree on. Both of our governments are bat shiat crazy and do creepy evil crap.

The chemical weapons have been found and used by terrorists. We are not fighting a war agaist Iraq's government. We are fighting terrorists who blow up thier own people, police forces, soldiers, women, children, men, and anything else they can.

Could it possibly be that your news media filters information the same way mine does to present a picture that they hope will have the effect they desire?

 

[FancaR]

Originally Posted by wrightme43
On South Ossetia, we agree the talking heads on the news go Tutt Tutt, the governments say this that and the other but nothing happens. I dont know hardly anything about what happened, why it happened, how it happened. I just dont know anything about it.

Good words, :thumbup:

Originally Posted by wrightme43
On Iraq, I can give you in the words of the Iraqi people and in thier actions that most of them are much much happier, safer, calmer, and they have democracy and freedoms they never had under Saddam.

It is the disputable point of view. I think, that its necessary to go personally there whether to see the truth.

Originally Posted by wrightme43
On that note, what exactly would of happened to a man that threw his shoes at Saddam? His family? What would of happened to them?

He would not throw boots in Saddam. Think, of the Iraq journalists, And their set of times was checked up also by Special services of the United States and a present management. But all the same the one who has thrown a boot in Bush there has got. And next day in Bagdad people went with a boot in the hands. This journalist became the national hero there. By the way at it the hand and some edges is broken. Though who knows, there can be it and is dead

With whom the American armies battled in Iraq? With the nation. It is possible to win army of the enemy, but if the enemy is the people he cannot be won, it can be exterminated only entirely

 

[FancaR]

Could it possibly be that your news media filters information the same way mine does to present a picture that they hope will have the effect they desire?

Maybe< why not

abraxas +1

armed man excite only hatred - its potential threat of force.
For exapmle Sovet Union army in Afganistan . Maybe people living beter by cccp army there. But it their country !!! Nothing strange that action was so long and vain. indigenous population is far from pleased with armed man's, all the same in Iraq

 

[FancaR]

 

[wrightme43]

There are some major differences between the way the US is handling Iraq, and Afganistan then the way the old CCCP handled Afganistan.

We are working very very very hard to provide education supplies, and allow teachers to teach, and to prove to the Iraqi people thier children are important to us.

Please read this. This is part of the reason I found the video about 85,000 murdered children to be so ridiculous.

Operation Iraqi Children: A Bright Shining Hope

The terrorists kill teachers, so they wont teach.
Iraqi police, Iraqi soldiers, Iraqi civilians die alongside America soliders to insure the schools are able to teach the children.

The Iraqi people are taking over. The terrorists have lost. They are fighting a delay, but there is nowhere for them to go. They have very little support inside Iraq.

This is from March of this year.

Stake Through Their Hearts:

Al Quida is being slaughtered by the Iraqi people themselves. They have no sancutary. The destroyed the concept of surrender or sancutary for themselves. No uniform, pretending to surrender only to turn and fight. Bombing weddings, murdering children, raping women and children. The Iraqi people now hunt them. That is success. Iraqi is a democracy. It is taking toddler steps. It will make horrible mistakes. I pray that God or Allah will watch over and protect them, and guide them. Once you have a armed population with a taste of freedom, it becomes a self fufilling dream.

My friend from Russia have you ever heard this quote in your schools?
Thomas Jefferson, one of our founders who risked his property, standing, home, land, and very life on the idea that all men are created equal, and endowed with certian inalienable rights. The right Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. He said this.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.


I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

 

[Kilbane83]

Only thing I have to say on this subject.. and I've read all the posts so far( some of which are grossily misinformed) is this:

Can you honestly say that the quality of life in Iraq has not improved?

The reason for the invasion is irrelevant at this point. If the outcome is positive then it was a good thing. You can't change the past only the future.

And btw.. the guy wouldn't have thrown his shoes at Saddam because
A) There would be no press interviews
B) Saddam would have destroyed his family. Not because they liked Saddam.
Did you think maybe people are happy that they're able to express whatever discontent they may have without fear of massive retaliation? That's why he's a hero now? That is the gift they've recieved... and that price has been paid by people from all nations.

 

[Hellgate]

Only thing I have to say on this subject.. and I've read all the posts so far( some of which are grossily misinformed) is this:

Can you honestly say that the quality of life in Iraq has not improved?

The reason for the invasion is irrelevant at this point. If the outcome is positive then it was a good thing. You can't change the past only the future.

And btw.. the guy wouldn't have thrown his shoes at Saddam because
A) There would be no press interviews
B) Saddam would have destroyed his family. Not because they liked Saddam.
Did you think maybe people are happy that they're able to express whatever discontent they may have without fear of massive retaliation? That's why he's a hero now? That is the gift they've recieved... and that price has been paid by people from all nations.

That and how did he walk home in all of the nasty mud of winter???

 

[formula154]

We haven’t had any more buildings knocked down in the USA. Every one in the USA wanted revenge for 911. Now a lot of people are talking loud about how it was a mistake to attack Iraq. Its easy for people who do nothing to criticize the ones who do. In all honesty I think the USA is more interested in maintaining stability in the middle east than they are about democracy. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are run by monarchy not democracy. People say the only thing the US cares about in the middle east is the oil. Well the only thing people in the middle east care about the USA is the money they get from us for their oil. They don't have anything to whine about.

 

[Hellgate]

Yeah, notice how OPEC is complaining about the falling oil prices? The OPEC minsiter said that oil should be $75 a barrel. Really? Not if there isn't the demand.

 

[formula154]

(((((((((But all the same the United Nations has not given the permission to this operation. Weapons of mass destruction are not present. What or still the distinct reasons too are not present. It is necessary - to plant one there the management and to drive from Iraq cheap fuel. After all in the United States gasoline one of the cheapest in the world, not including such countries as Rurkmenistan, where gasoline is cheaper than potable water. Also that is necessary that to do to support such prices as Americans simply so will not allow them to lift upwards.))))))))))))))))


Saddam defied the UN for over 10 years by refusing to alow inspectors to inspect. He gave plenty of provacation for the attack by refusing to obey the UN resolution. He gave plenty of reason for every one to believe that he had weapons by refusing to let the inspectors inspect. The UN didn't give permission to attack because inspite of the fact that Saddam refused to obey the UN's resolution demanding inspections, they didn't have guts enough to do anything about it. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, turky and others were so afraid of what Saddam might do next that they alowed the USA's troops to be stationed in their country so that we could put a stop to Saddam.
The UN didn't do anything about Saddam because Russia and France both had financial interest in that area that they were protecting by vetoing any resolution for action. France and Russia both couldn't care less about the people in that area as long as their own financial interest arent disturbrd and that is why they vetoed any action.
The way I feel about it is that if the UN wants peace then they better see to it that that the USA isn't attacked and 5000 of our innocent civilian killed. When our buildings are attacked and our civilians killed in our own country then somebody is going to pay for it. Any body that doesn't like that can kiss my ass. The fact that Iraq might have had something to do with the attack and they might be developing weapons that could be used against us in a future attack is reason enough for our attack.

 

[FancaR]

There are some major differences between the
We are working very very very hard to provide education supplies, and allow teachers to teach, and to prove to the Iraqi people thier children are important to us.

Tell this delirium to children personally, to children which fathers were killed by your fighters

Democracy? The broken ribs and hands in reply to the thrown boot - here a symbol of the American democracy last years


++++
My friend from Russia have you ever heard this quote in your schools?
Thomas Jefferson, one of our founders who risked his property, standing, home, land, and very life on the idea that all men are created equal, and endowed with certian inalienable rights. The right Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. He said this.
++++

No, in Russian schools do not teach in detail American history. I think that in your schools only usa-history, excepting history of ancient Rome for example...

Thomas Jefferson... :Flash:

I repeat once again. There is more powerful reason to send to Iraq armies. What normal president will send citizens of the country, the best country in the world with the best in the world values, the best in the world people, laws, freedom, bla bla bla. To devil's Iraq? The bosh suffices

Your government helped the Georgian government to be at war against Russia in this short war. I work in the field of telecommunications. At our military men all routers cisco on August, 8th, 2008 have at once gone out, and other American telecommunication equipment at that time when the Georgian armies killed peace people. Google earth too has ceased to display territory of Georgia. The killed American military men near to corpses of the Georgian military men. The American weapon, trucks... It is not necessary to speak about freedom and equality. Your government, as well as any another, does that is favourable only to it. Hanging up you noodles on ears about freedom, equality and a brotherhood

I do not wish to tell that in Russia the government better. At us as lie on TV and in newspapers. For example now at us in the country wish to enter duties on imported cars from abroad five times exceeding cost of the imported car. On all country of protest action and collision by law and order bodies. And only one channel on TV speaks about these collisions. There is no big difference that is created in the world, including that is created in separately taken states

Excuse for bad English

 

[FancaR]

Saddam defied the UN for over 10 years by refusing to alow inspectors to inspect. He gave plenty of provacation for the attack by refusing to obey the UN resolution. He gave plenty of reason for every one to believe that he had weapons by refusing to let the inspectors inspect. The UN didn't give permission to attack because inspite of the fact that Saddam refused to obey the UN's resolution demanding inspections, they didn't have guts enough to do anything about it. Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, turky and others were so afraid of what Saddam might do next that they alowed the USA's troops to be stationed in their country so that we could put a stop to Saddam.
The UN didn't do anything about Saddam because Russia and France both had financial interest in that area that they were protecting by vetoing any resolution for action. France and Russia both couldn't care less about the people in that area as long as their own financial interest arent disturbrd and that is why they vetoed any action.
The way I feel about it is that if the UN wants peace then they better see to it that that the USA isn't attacked and 5000 of our innocent civilian killed. When our buildings are attacked and our civilians killed in our own country then somebody is going to pay for it. Any body that doesn't like that can kiss my ass. The fact that Iraq might have had something to do with the attack and they might be developing weapons that could be used against us in a future attack is reason enough for our attack.

Switch off the TV. I can hear the same on cnn.com for example

911 is a failure of the American secret services. It is not necessary to search for the guilty.

 

[formula154]

Switch off the TV. I can hear the same on cnn.com for example

911 is a failure of the American secret services. It is not necessary to search for the guilty.

Switch off the TV. I can hear the same on cnn.com for example

You hear but you refuse to listen because they don't say what you want to hear. That is your problem not mine.

911 is a failure of the American secret services. It is not necessary to search for the guilty.

The guilty are the people who decided to attack the USA. The fact that the secret service (the secret service protects the president by the way. Turn CNN back on and open your ears maybe you will learn something) didn't discover it and stop it doesn't make the victims of the attack guilty of the attack.

 

[formula154]

FancaR says that USA helped Georgia when Russia attacked them. So what? At the start of WWII Russia was allied with Hitler. After Hitler attacked Russia they switched sides and became allies with the Allied forces. At the end of WWII the Russians enslaved Eastern Europe for 50 years:spank:. They tried to put nuke's in Cuba:spank:. They supplied SAM's to North Viet Nam all through the war:spank:. They invaded Afghanistan them selves:spank:. The reason they turned Europe loose and got out of Afghanistan is because their empire collapsed:cheer:. Now FancaR wants to act like the USA isn't righteous and holy enough. We aren't righteous and holy enough compared to whom, Russia? A Russian complaining that the USA isn't righteous and holy enough is ,as we in America say, the pot calling the kettle black. The pot and the kettle are both black. For one to call the other black is hypocrisy.
Gooooood day!!!!!!:thumbup::rockon:

 

[lonesoldier84]

the only gripe i have about iraq is that all of the reasons they give are just the leaders lying thru their teeth. if they werent they wouldnt have stood idlt by during rwanda in the past, darfur now, and COUNTLESS other events in the past and even now today.

saddam isnt that bad when u stack him up against other noble and moral things the US troops could have been doing. oil reserves and a power base in the middle east are why its on full throttle.

 

[wrightme43]

See Lone you have it all wrong.

The soldiers are not there to do noble things.
Soldiers job is to provide very concentrated destruction, and mayhem. The rest is just because they care, and the american people (well some of them) care.

Soldiers arenot to be used as a public works, thier main job is to actually walk onto a piece of ground, take it, hold it, and deny the enemy the use of it.

That is best accomplished after the mayhem, by building schools, helping children, speaking with parents, buying foods, building water supplies, building power generation and distribution.

See the TV and News media have twisted something all around here.

The Iraq vs. US, UK, AUS war was over in a few short weeks. The Baath party was defeated, the soldiers surrendered, no planes took off, no tanks rolled into battle, no anti aircraft batteries fired, there was no longer any organised Baath party resistance. It was done.

IRAN, and SYRIA, and Al Qaeda have been fighting a proxy terrorist action with the US, UK, AUS in Iraq. We know they are state sponsors of terrorism. Here is the ticket.
IRAQIS that love Iraq and Iraqs people dont BLOW UP THIER OWN CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are they fighting?

A DEMOCRACY that works in IRAQ will destroy thier hold on power. A free market, with a representational government always does better than a dictatorship. They can not allow it. Its too late though. Unless our new Congress, Senate and President do something extremely stupid (oh say like Kennedy at the Bay of Pigs) the dictatorships, and relegious oppression that are normal in the middle east are finished. It will take time, but once people taste freedom, its all over but the crying. Iraq will have huge problems. One will be immigration. The best and brightest from all over the world come to America, England, Austraila, Germany, and other countries.

I can go on and on, but I am going to shut up and I hope you look at things in different way, and think on what a soldier has to do vs. what a soldier can do when he is also a free man.

One last thing. They are blowing up the policemen, the teachers, and the students. That is not the actions of war. That is terrorism.