Going Left? Then Steer Right! - Countersteer

dstaffx · Mar 25, 2011

Counter steering!

This is something that I’m sure the people on here that go to track days and stuff will be familiar with. It has saved my ass on more than one occasion on the road so I thought I’d share it.

If you read the attached article I (poorly) scanned in it explains it all.
Open it in pdf from here : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16323210/Counter steer.pdf

Some of the racers here might have something to add.

It’s worth a try next time that you’re out. The smallest pressure on the palm of your hand while turning and you feel the bike drop so much faster/quicker responce.

In case anyone is reading this thinking “I’m not trying that, I’ll leave this to the experts”. Let me tell you I am no expert. I have never got the knee down or done a track day myself. I just ride at my own pace for fun.

Anyway. Best of luck.

Oh and I hope to lose my track virginity this year.

View attachment 34405
:thumbup:

Kazza · Mar 25, 2011

Many people STILL don't get countersteering and yet they use it when they ride without even knowing. I've always understood it.

:thumbup:

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lazamus69 · Mar 25, 2011

They covered this quite extensively in the riding class I did. Only way to ride....

Motogiro · Mar 25, 2011

Decent write up.

One note: When the article talks about standing the bike up in a right hand turn and leaving the road and standing it up in a left hand turn and running into oncoming traffic the writer is talking about driving on the left side of the road. Like England or Oz.
The opposite would apply for people who ride on the right side of the road.

Another note: Counter steering is not always the way to steer the bike. At very slow speeds the bike will track in the direction the front wheel is turned and counter steering will not be effective.

Counter steering is a fun subject and with a little imagination you will see what's happening with it and get a better mental grasp on it. As already said you already do it with out thinking about.

kyle · Mar 25, 2011

I started off riding *after* the MSF course, so I just can't imagine going any amount of time without knowing this. How does one pass cars like a hooligan without it? (J/K, I'd never do that).

iSteve · Mar 25, 2011

I'm not sure this is a learned technique I think it just comes natural. If you think about it, it all starts the first time you go down a hill on a bicycle. I think motorcycle journalist just like to write about it every few years.

rjo3491 · Mar 26, 2011

This isn't stressed near enough in MSF courses. The instructor [in my case] kept yelling, "press & roll, press & roll" during one of our exercises. As one reader astutely pointed out in an earlier response, at low speeds [as in an MSF class], the bike tracks the way the yoke is turned, hence no counter steer.

I first experienced this phenomena during my second or third time out on the road after getting my license. It's a tough subject to attack as the last thing you'd want is to introduce too much speed in MSF where there are riders [like myself] who have never been on a bike, but somehow we need to better prepare riders in this area.

RJ2112 · Mar 26, 2011

Motogiro said:
Decent write up.

One note: When the article talks about standing the bike up in a right hand turn and leaving the road and standing it up in a left hand turn and running into oncoming traffic the writer is talking about driving on the left side of the road. Like England or Oz.
The opposite would apply for people who ride on the right side of the road.

Another note: Counter steering is not always the way to steer the bike. At very slow speeds the bike will track in the direction the front wheel is turned and counter steering will not be effective.

Counter steering is a fun subject and with a little imagination you will see what's happening with it and get a better mental grasp on it. As already said you already do it with out thinking about.

Not to be nit picky.... (okay, I know I am being so

) you are always steering by pointing the front wheel away from your intended direction of travel. Motorcycles steer by falling into the turn. Always.

At extremely slow speeds, you just don't need to lean anywhere near as much, so it seems invisible. You are still moving the tires out from underneath the center of gravity in the opposite direction you want to go. The displacement at a walking pace is only an inch or two, compared to more than a foot at full speed.

Motogiro · Mar 26, 2011

RJ2112 said:
Not to be nit picky.... (okay, I know I am being so) you are always steering by pointing the front wheel away from your intended direction of travel. Motorcycles steer by falling into the turn. Always.

At extremely slow speeds, you just don't need to lean anywhere near as much, so it seems invisible. You are still moving the tires out from underneath the center of gravity in the opposite direction you want to go. The displacement at a walking pace is only an inch or two, compared to more than a foot at full speed.

When I'm moving at very slow speed the bike goes in the the direction I point the wheel not in the opposite. At that point I would not say the bike is counter steering. If it was it would not track in the direction I'm pointing the wheel.

I agree and do understand that in the microcosm, those forces still always exist but they are no longer what I consider the counter steering realm. The tracking of the front wheel's direction has over come the counter steering forces. So if I were to explain to someone who has never contemplated how the forces of counter steering work and say to them, that the bike travels in the opposite direction it is pointed in, by the front wheel, they might wonder why the bike is traveling in the direction the wheel is pointed and not in the opposite direction as in counter steering.

dstaffx · Mar 26, 2011

Motogiro said:
When I'm moving at very slow speed the bike goes in the the direction I point the wheel not in the opposite. At that point I would not say the bike is counter steering. If it was it would not track in the direction I'm pointing the wheel.

I agree and do understand that in the microcosm, those forces still always exist but they are no longer what I consider the counter steering realm. The tracking of the front wheel's direction has over come the counter steering forces. So if I were to explain to someone who has never contemplated how the forces of counter steering work and say to them, that the bike travels in the opposite direction it is pointed in, by the front wheel, they might wonder why the bike is traveling in the direction the wheel is pointed and not in the opposite direction as in counter steering.

The force is strong within you

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aziebell · Mar 26, 2011

I always remembered it by "Push Right, Go Right". Very effective.

Ransom · Mar 26, 2011

One thing I have noticed with some of the people I ride with is that when they countersteer in a big long turn, they seem to forget to lean their body. Too often I see them trying to keep their body upright on the bike while in these turns. I have tried to stress this to them, but of course they protest that they are or that they don't need to for some of the turns.

It may be true that they may not need to lean for some of the turns, I just feel better when I do it for the big long turns or a back to back turn going opposite directions.

I am still honing my skills myself so I could be wrong.

Motogiro · Mar 27, 2011

Ransom said:
One thing I have noticed with some of the people I ride with is that when they countersteer in a big long turn, they seem to forget to lean their body. Too often I see them trying to keep their body upright on the bike while in these turns. I have tried to stress this to them, but of course they protest that they are or that they don't need to for some of the turns.

It may be true that they may not need to lean for some of the turns, I just feel better when I do it for the big long turns or a back to back turn going opposite directions.

I am still honing my skills myself so I could be wrong.

I generally shift my weight because it's something I've gotten used to, but it also depends how fast I'm entering a turn and how much tire I think I might need at that speed in that radius. Some turns can be blind hairpins with a closing radius, and if you're hot in it and need more tire but don't have it?

So it really depends on the situation. There's nothing wrong with staying on the seat as long as you're confident of the turn, your speed and ability.
Lately I've been staying more on the seat to keep my feel of the bike during both types of riding. Of course that is tempered with adjusting for a little slower speed in the turn. :thumbup:

Misti · Mar 28, 2011

iSteve said:
I'm not sure this is a learned technique I think it just comes natural. If you think about it, it all starts the first time you go down a hill on a bicycle. I think motorcycle journalist just like to write about it every few years.

You would be surprised by how many people do not fully understand counter-steering. While they will as you say, "naturally" do it, they don't realize that they are actually pressing the left bar to make the bike go left etc. This causes problems when the rider is forced to make a quick decision to steer the bike out of danger or make a quick turn or something, they get all fuddled up and can't make the bike go where they want effectively.

As a coach for the California Superbike School I have seen dozens and dozens of students riding around the track without realizing that they were countersteering, I can see this in the way they are indecisive and ineffective with their steering actions.

When we do the steering drill exercise with them we help them to understand how counter-steering actually works and we help make them more effective with their steering actions.

When you really understand that you have to press the left bar to go left, and that pressing "forward" and not "down" on the bars" will make it turn easier you become much more adept at steering and of getting the bike to go exactly where you want it to go.

I agree with most of the article here except when he states that you should "forget your lower body" for the time being (to practice countersteering). A good solid stable body will help you counter-steer more effectively.

Anyone notice that if you aren't stable or connected to your bike with your lower body that you can't steer the bike as well?

Misti

medic91c · May 18, 2011

As natural as riding a bike. Unfortunately, I can attest to the fact that your brain will occasionally try to kill you and say "you can't do that". I almost didn't make a 160deg loop off one interstate and on to another. I need more practice (and the MTF advanced course)....bad squid, bad...

Motogiro · May 18, 2011

Misti said:
You would be surprised by how many people do not fully understand counter-steering. While they will as you say, "naturally" do it, they don't realize that they are actually pressing the left bar to make the bike go left etc. This causes problems when the rider is forced to make a quick decision to steer the bike out of danger or make a quick turn or something, they get all fuddled up and can't make the bike go where they want effectively.

As a coach for the California Superbike School I have seen dozens and dozens of students riding around the track without realizing that they were countersteering, I can see this in the way they are indecisive and ineffective with their steering actions.

When we do the steering drill exercise with them we help them to understand how counter-steering actually works and we help make them more effective with their steering actions.

When you really understand that you have to press the left bar to go left, and that pressing "forward" and not "down" on the bars" will make it turn easier you become much more adept at steering and of getting the bike to go exactly where you want it to go.

I agree with most of the article here except when he states that you should "forget your lower body" for the time being (to practice countersteering). A good solid stable body will help you counter-steer more effectively.

Anyone notice that if you aren't stable or connected to your bike with your lower body that you can't steer the bike as well?

Misti

Yes! Like if you've transferred weight to the balls of your feet on the pegs and not full set(floating) on the seat and give input to the front. Life is a little better when you are connected to the bike. When you're not connected it's a totally different bike. Steering is unloaded so your muscle memory of the steering inputs is no longer as efficient. To remain physically with the bike your mass will have some time catch up and match where again you will have to make steering adjustments to match the different total mass of you and the bike. This is where intimacy with your machine is very important! :hug:

Motogiro · May 18, 2011

medic91c said:
As natural as riding a bike. Unfortunately, I can attest to the fact that your brain will occasionally try to kill you and say "you can't do that". I almost didn't make a 160deg loop off one interstate and on to another. I need more practice (and the MTF advanced course)....bad squid, bad...

Was that a result of your riding skill or were you preoccupied with something else at the moment? That can happen. Unfortunately riding a motorcycle requires 100% at all times.

discovery · May 18, 2011

I've learned it through Keith Codes brilliant book :cheer:

MHS · May 18, 2011

When I took the MSF course they emphasized "slow, look, press, and roll" -- but they never specified press (forward). It wasn't until I got out on my own bike and messed around that I really got it.

Not going to lie - I still don't fully understand the physics behind it, but I know how to do it and I think that's the more important part.

When i'm making a turn I usually slightly further into the turn, but mostly I just move with the bike.

Misti · May 19, 2011

Motogiro said:
Yes! Like if you've transferred weight to the balls of your feet on the pegs and not full set(floating) on the seat and give input to the front. Life is a little better when you are connected to the bike. When you're not connected it's a totally different bike. Steering is unloaded so your muscle memory of the steering inputs is no longer as efficient. To remain physically with the bike your mass will have some time catch up and match where again you will have to make steering adjustments to match the different total mass of you and the bike. This is where intimacy with your machine is very important! :hug:

:thumbup:

The more connected and stable you are on your own bike the more effective your steering is going to be. Keith Code has a drill called Pivot or Power Steering in which he talks about pressing off the opposite footpeg and digging into the tank with that outside knee in order to get a more effective and more solid push on the other bar. It really makes the steering quick, smooth and very very fast with much less effort and this can be so important when you need to change the direction of your bike quickly...

Misti

Going Left? Then Steer Right! - Countersteer

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