Headers look good tho!
08 FZ6 Condensed Build thread ~Final Impact~
- Thread starter FinalImpact
- Start date
Sometimes progress comes at a cost. I wasn't ready to hammer in the header and that nub serves no other purpose than to slow me down. So it lost! With the nub gone, the header fits fine!:thumbup::thumbup: Now to weld up sump. :thumbup:
- If one was to bash in the header just a bit, you could get it to work that way. If you follow my mission, its about improving flow and bashing in the header would be a last resort. It hasn't come to that yet!
Also, O2 sensor is a standard size and pitch (18mm X 1.5mm) so there is no reason to buy a Yamaha $250 O2 sensor unless you want to pay $175 for the yamaha connector on it. I'll weld the SS bung to the pipe. I had to verify it fits. But it won't be there long as a wide band O2 sensor will be in its place. Or maybe throw the Bazzaz controller on it and just use the sensor to monitor AFR...
Chance, in this shot I clamped them together at the flange. Everything aligns good! As for the length. It looks deceiving but we all know the S2 mid pipe is longer and the S1 mid pipe shorter. It's because of the bend radius at the end. The S2 header has that nasty bend and is shorter so it needs a longer mid pipe.
- That said, they come out and point in the same direction. This is GOING TO WORK! Despite many saying it doesn't.
In case someone needs this info w/out crawling under bike.
Denso O2 Sensor:
Random Pick! Was thinking a Flapper would look good!
Attempted to correct color in this photo. Exhaust valves on NONE-OIL burning engines are always grey/white/ash colored. Keep in mind the flash was on stun to reach into the port so they look white. The valves are not white. The block is BLACK but too much reflection....
Note AIS port (Present in 4 ports). Note: All 8 valves had a touch of oil/carbon build up right around the valve guide. I decel from high RPMs often. NOTE very light film of oil on roof of port.
- If one was to bash in the header just a bit, you could get it to work that way. If you follow my mission, its about improving flow and bashing in the header would be a last resort. It hasn't come to that yet!
Also, O2 sensor is a standard size and pitch (18mm X 1.5mm) so there is no reason to buy a Yamaha $250 O2 sensor unless you want to pay $175 for the yamaha connector on it. I'll weld the SS bung to the pipe. I had to verify it fits. But it won't be there long as a wide band O2 sensor will be in its place. Or maybe throw the Bazzaz controller on it and just use the sensor to monitor AFR...
Chance, in this shot I clamped them together at the flange. Everything aligns good! As for the length. It looks deceiving but we all know the S2 mid pipe is longer and the S1 mid pipe shorter. It's because of the bend radius at the end. The S2 header has that nasty bend and is shorter so it needs a longer mid pipe.
- That said, they come out and point in the same direction. This is GOING TO WORK! Despite many saying it doesn't.
In case someone needs this info w/out crawling under bike.
Denso O2 Sensor:
Random Pick! Was thinking a Flapper would look good!
Attempted to correct color in this photo. Exhaust valves on NONE-OIL burning engines are always grey/white/ash colored. Keep in mind the flash was on stun to reach into the port so they look white. The valves are not white. The block is BLACK but too much reflection....
Note AIS port (Present in 4 ports). Note: All 8 valves had a touch of oil/carbon build up right around the valve guide. I decel from high RPMs often. NOTE very light film of oil on roof of port.
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fazil
Junior Member
R6 cam swap is what i would like to see after all these great improvements.
I thought you grabbed a set of cams? Did you ever install them?
Well ive been thinking about it. Mating used cams from another block against used buckets from another block is a turn off. Buying 16 new buckets is to expensive. That is my issue....
fazil
Junior Member
Yes, cams are still waiting in a box. Still not sure if that swap worth to try.
I didn't know that buckets should be changed too. What if the existing buckets are used with the R6 cams?
ozgurakman
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why? it's just buckets, will re-shimming not work for clerance adjusting?
Are used buckets can be used with r6 cams after sanding with 2000 paper?
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From new the CAM lobe and BUCKET work harden and wear and mate as a pair. That's why you keep the order and put each back where it came from so they don't have to wear in as a new pair and make more metal.
Point - mixing used parts has some risk. Most get away with it but every once in a while a cam/tappet/bucket assembly will be ruined. So even tho the surface looks the same, they should not be swapped. I think the quality of parts and oil is tipping the odds in our favor but I'm not to that point yet.
Plus I don't want full song from 10 - 14, would rather move it down the scale than up...
Did you guys see this --> How to adjust your valves.. .. ..
In short I had 3 valves that were out of spec enough to hear them. Each of the 3 buckets that had more clearance had some form of RING on them. Here are two of them. I couldn't measure any deflection but clearly something is happening. So I wouldn't want to throw a different cam at these.. .. ..
In short I had 3 valves that were out of spec enough to hear them. Each of the 3 buckets that had more clearance had some form of RING on them. Here are two of them. I couldn't measure any deflection but clearly something is happening. So I wouldn't want to throw a different cam at these.. .. ..
fazil
Junior Member
If new buckets are replaced for used R6 cams, is it ok?
If new buckets are replaced for used R6 cams, is it ok?
New buckets are the safe way to go. Is it 100% required, thats a guessing game. As stated, others have gotten away with OUT replacing them.
MY OBSERVATION IS THIS: Why is it that people that DO MAJOR Changes like USD Forks, tail bobs, under bike exhaust, always sell them??
No need to go that far, and throw in the towel if the goal is really a need. So thats the deciding point for me. Do I really have to have it!
The next thing is the springs, the exhausts are the same PN. The intake springs are different. R6 does have more lift. Its not much, but it may be worth looking into just to be sure.
PS - My goal is to never to compromise reliability. I ride too far alone and have no desire to walk home w/out a bike and/or freeze in the woods.
EDIT:
I would just throw them in there before doing that. No way to control what sanding does.
New buckets are the safe way to go. Is it 100% required, thats a guessing game. As stated, others have gotten away with OUT replacing them.
MY OBSERVATION IS THIS: Why is it that people that DO MAJOR Changes like USD Forks, tail bobs, under bike exhaust, always sell them??
No need to go that far, and throw in the towel if the goal is really a need. So thats the deciding point for me. Do I really have to have it!
The next thing is the springs, the exhausts are the same PN. The intake springs are different. R6 does have more lift. Its not much, but it may be worth looking into just to be sure.
PS - My goal is to never to compromise reliability. I ride too far alone and have no desire to walk home w/out a bike and/or freeze in the woods.
EDIT:
I would just throw them in there before doing that. No way to control what sanding does.
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fazil
Junior Member
May be advancing timing is the way to go instead of R6 cams. Easier and more reliable. No buckets are springs.
I'm just looking for a little bit more torque.
I'm just looking for a little bit more torque.
Its not gonna help that in a way that you really notice. It will help that throttle snatch (rewet after letting off) and actual response time from twisting the grip. Engine is very responsive to input.
You do have to run better gas and I'd drop to colder plugs. CR10E or eq in iridium.
You do have to run better gas and I'd drop to colder plugs. CR10E or eq in iridium.
ChanceCoats123
Junior Member
You mention the exhaust springs are the same PN, and the intakes are different. Do you happen to know any of the spring rates on these springs (lbs/in or whatever unit best fits)?
My reason in wondering is that if the FZ6 intakes have a higher spring rate, then as the lift increases with the R6 cam, you'll run into premature ware.
My thought would be that one of two situations is the difference between the R6 top end and the FZ6 top end:
1) R6 uses softer intake springs to decrease wear during higher lift situations. A potential con to this is softer springs would mean easier valve float, and the R6 redline is a few thousand higher than the FZ6.
2) R6 uses harder springs to avoid the con I mentioned above (valve float at high RPM). The consequence of this would be increased wear on the intake valve buckets. Harder spring means more pounds/in of compression and with a higher lift (even a three hundredths with a spring rate of 500 lbs/in is an extra 15 pounds of force on the bucket).
Now these are my two ideas. I would figure that option 2 is actually what is used because of the increased redline on the R6 motor. This could actually be a good thing for an R6 swap. It would mean the spring rate is a bit lower than in an actual R6, and bucket wear would be lower than in an R6. The increased lift would still mean increased wear though. So my best guess would that you would end up somewhere in between an R6 + R6 cams and an FZ6 + FZ6 cams in terms of bucket wear (with the R6 + R6 cams being worst).
All of that said, it would be cool to see, but I wonder how much of a difference it would really make.
Moving on though: How did you fix the hole in the oil pan? It sounds like you've got everything else figured out though. Did you determine how you're going to handle the exhaust hanger?
My reason in wondering is that if the FZ6 intakes have a higher spring rate, then as the lift increases with the R6 cam, you'll run into premature ware.
My thought would be that one of two situations is the difference between the R6 top end and the FZ6 top end:
1) R6 uses softer intake springs to decrease wear during higher lift situations. A potential con to this is softer springs would mean easier valve float, and the R6 redline is a few thousand higher than the FZ6.
2) R6 uses harder springs to avoid the con I mentioned above (valve float at high RPM). The consequence of this would be increased wear on the intake valve buckets. Harder spring means more pounds/in of compression and with a higher lift (even a three hundredths with a spring rate of 500 lbs/in is an extra 15 pounds of force on the bucket).
Now these are my two ideas. I would figure that option 2 is actually what is used because of the increased redline on the R6 motor. This could actually be a good thing for an R6 swap. It would mean the spring rate is a bit lower than in an actual R6, and bucket wear would be lower than in an R6. The increased lift would still mean increased wear though. So my best guess would that you would end up somewhere in between an R6 + R6 cams and an FZ6 + FZ6 cams in terms of bucket wear (with the R6 + R6 cams being worst).
All of that said, it would be cool to see, but I wonder how much of a difference it would really make.
Moving on though: How did you fix the hole in the oil pan? It sounds like you've got everything else figured out though. Did you determine how you're going to handle the exhaust hanger?
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Simple stuff first; pan is getting welded for a Six Pack!
Exhaust hanger appears to be a bolt on. Just need to find someone who has one. Buying new is a treatment in Nickle Dime actions....
>>> WANTED!!!! F/I Dangles OEM forks and R6 forks as trading goodies! haha
27) 90109-082A1-00, BOLT
28) 90201-086P8-00, WASHER, PLATE
29) 5VX-21446-10-00, STAY, MUFFLER
30) 4XV-27424-00-00, DAMPER, MUFFLER
31) 90387-082W9-00, COLLAR
OK - onto the R stuff. Yes, I've looked over a bunch of it and the most obvious thing is lift and coil bind. But it only has 0.030" more lift. Not a lot but perhaps enough. Read up on the harmonics that occur at different opening rates. They used to run flat looking inner springs that were just dampers. These are not there for that purpose. The inner spring does add seat pressure.
Bottom line for me is it introduces risk to an otherwise stable platform. Should I drop a valve or hose the engine - bike is worth nothing and is expensive to fix. Granted I have a WANT to do it just to see, but the actual NEED vs the risk if it doesn't go as planned, well - I'm not in place to go all in just yet.
I have the info if you wish to read it. Its out there to be found. Its just hard to compare specs created in different eras for different needs without the actual parts on hand to measure and hold. You know?
Personally the most bang per buck is six of us sending the ECU to ECUnleashed and letting them unlock the ignition advance curve and set a basic fuel curve. Yes, I wrote them and they will. Its the most reliable thing to do and get something from it. Certainly more than throwing cans on it. Depending on other mods and how well it moves air, fuel controllers would be used for fine tuning per bike...
Seeings how I failed to beat the EDIT TIMER; I'll add this....
If I go all in with R6 cams, its going to get the R valve cover and pick up trigger wheel that supports the Glorified R ECU. But then you need the cluster and harness mods (insert list of BS here).... after that, no one in there proper mind would ever buy this bike. Unless they rode and said HOLLY SH|T, I HAD to HANG ON!!! << big dreams I know!
I just want it to pull the nose up like it should! That is my goal! Well and make it handle. Which I did that!
Need to talk to someone and find out if this will work with Z-Fi Controller... http://www.bazzaz.net/index.php/ems-accessories/z-afm-air-fuel-mapper
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ChanceCoats123
Junior Member
Did they quote you a price for the ECU unlocking? And if they unlock the ignition advance, modifying the trigger would be useless, no?
Edit: Glad to hear you got the pan worked out. I'll keep my eyes open for the exhaust hanger as well!
Edit: Glad to hear you got the pan worked out. I'll keep my eyes open for the exhaust hanger as well!
Thanks ^^ Need that ASAP. Gonna go forth w/out for now. I'll find one.
Group Buy was ~$400 which is too rich for something we can't alter once received. And getting 5 or 6 members to down their bike and ship the ECU off ALL at the same time, well - A stretch I'd guess. And yes, no need for the mod'd trigger wheel. Hence the reason I grabbed a SPARE!
Group Buy was ~$400 which is too rich for something we can't alter once received. And getting 5 or 6 members to down their bike and ship the ECU off ALL at the same time, well - A stretch I'd guess. And yes, no need for the mod'd trigger wheel. Hence the reason I grabbed a SPARE!
ChanceCoats123
Junior Member
Was that $400 a person or as a group? If it's for the whole group, sign me up! During the winter, my bike literally just sits in the garage with me occasionally working on it, so I could easily pull the ECU for some work. :thup:
You took the optimistic path on that road!!! Thats per ECU! :jawdrop:
Well, pan, header bung, and ANOTHER De-CAT pipe are ready for install. Hope I measured right!
Well, pan, header bung, and ANOTHER De-CAT pipe are ready for install. Hope I measured right!
ChanceCoats123
Junior Member
Hahaha, I was hoping it would be the optimistic route.
The exhaust looks good though!
Are you offering de-cat services over there? My welding buddy doesn't have the necessary equipment to weld stainless and I'd rather if my midpipe didn't slowly rust away.
The exhaust looks good though!
Are you offering de-cat services over there? My welding buddy doesn't have the necessary equipment to weld stainless and I'd rather if my midpipe didn't slowly rust away.
DREAMER!!!! :rof::rof::rof::rof:
It all bolted up nicely! It has *some clearance* like maybe 5/16" between the header and the pan. No worse than it was. Put everything back and she fired right off! Headers already look to have a new hue....
I now have a base line to start from which YOU S1 folks already had! What is nice is the ECM with the O2 sensor seems to remap and lean pretty quickly. But as said, now its ready for the real thing and either bite the bullet and ship the ECM or throw the fuel controller on it and call it good.
Did I mention that she NO longer sounds like a Singer Sewing Machine! This is much better! More in line with what I expect! She revs's, she pulls, she sounds like she means business!! 10K now sounds like the old 14K... And the response is good too! It was a short run, couldn't tell if that hurt the midrange or not?
S1 Header to S2 Bike! Notice bump in pan is gone.
Phone SUCKS at pictures...
It can be done and its pretty straight forward. But to answer the question, no - gonna have to find your own welder!
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