London Riots

[Nelly]

What can I say,
Today England's youth shame the country and have really put community relations back years.
Copycat riots in Ealing, Islington, Croydon, Camden and Birmingham.
£100,000,000 damage. The Sky news reporter caught two girls looting a clothing shop and asked why she was doing it. "I'm getting me taxes back init" the girl is about 15 and probably has not contributed to any P.A.Y.E yet:spank:.
My heart goe's out to all the decent people affected.

WTF is going on?

Nelly

 

[mxgolf]

I here ya there Nelly. What's the world coming too? The same thing is happening all over. Our young are not being tought the difference between right and wrong. Sad state of affairs. There are no values in the young people today.

 

[lonesoldier84]

Googled it. Sucks that a guy got shot. But was he firing back at cops?

Just saying if it was me I'd probably have found a peaceful way of ending that without getting myself shot.

No reason to burn a city down.

 

[Humperdinkel]

Well said Nelly , very sad to see whats going on over there Thats the sort of thing you come to expect in 3rd world countries not in England :shakehead:

 

[Andz]

Thats the sort of thing you come to expect in 3rd world countries

Way to generalise about 3rd world countries. Mind you, in 3rd world countries the authorities know how to deal with this sort of mindless vandalism. The British seem totally clueless (or is it politically hobbled?)

Last night they showed a building burning in Croydon and there wasn't a person in sight around it, no rioters, police or firefighters. That to me was strange, I know in the initial riots in Tottenham the fire brigade were prevented getting through but this looked almost surreal.

 

[lonesoldier84]

Jesus....


......again with the advocation of death squads.

In the third world they are not restricted by human rights and other concerns. There are certain benefits to living with standards. You don't get pulled up and shot in the face for no reason then buried without a grave while your family wonders what happened to you.

I'll take a delayed response due to excessive planning to that alternative.

 

[Andz]

Jesus....


......again with the advocation of death squads.

In the third world they are not restricted by human rights and other concerns. There are certain benefits to living with standards. You don't get pulled up and shot in the face for no reason then buried without a grave while your family wonders what happened to you.

I'll take a delayed response due to excessive planning to that alternative.

Again with the over reaction! And another generalisation about the 3rd World. I live in the 3rd World, shows how much you know about it.

Who mentioned death squads? Ever heard of tear gas? Oh wait, you are Canadian, you just let hooligans run riot.

 

[lonesoldier84]

Refresh for the edited post above yours.

And no we do not let hooligans run rampant here. We do the best we can with the financial constraints we have on our justice system.

 

[Andz]

It doesn't really matter what I think, or anyone else outside London for that matter, I would be interested to heard what the people affected think that reponse should have been.

I can guarantee that they would have welcomed something more swift and robust.

 

[lonesoldier84]

I must say what irks me is the blanket assessment that western police forces are impotent because they have ethical standards built into their structure in the form of failsafes and checks against abuse of power.

Take those away and you've got the third world. You'll get your crackdown on the youth. But at what expense?

Blanket generalizations annoy me and more so when they are repeated again and again without much support.

Ask the officers involved and I'm sure they'll tell you they were doing the best they could with the constraints they had.

Now, if you are talking about SPECIFIC constraints then we have a discussion.....and not just another "this wouldn't have happened in the third world" sort of message. Of course it wouldn't have happened in the third world. They would have fired into the crowd with automatic weapons.

I know people who lost loved ones due to police crack downs on demonstrations so YES your generalizations really grind my gears.

(And btw all western riot squads have and routinely use tear gas.)

 

[Andz]

Blanket generalizations annoy me

Pot. kettle. black.

You are generalising about the third world in pretty much every post. There are parts of this area that are perfectly civilised and people live a good life.

And once again, over reaction. I mentioned tear gas, you just want to let rip with automatic weapons.

I just have a problem with wanton, mindless violence and destruction of property and lives and the authorities seem to do very little about it.

I am sure the people who lost their entire homes and belongings due to the fires wouldn't share your stand back and watch attitude to law enforcement.

I'm bored with this now. Write what you like, I won't be reading any more of this thread.

 

[lonesoldier84]

the authorities seem to do very little about it.

I am sure the people who lost their entire homes and belongings due to the fires wouldn't share your stand back and watch attitude to law enforcement.

No, I know some people who were affected as they lived quite near some of the apparent hotspots and they are very angry that the army wasn't called in immediately to shut the areas down.

As for why the army wasn't called in and what more could have been done has NOTHING to do with the practices of the third world. It has to do with improving the protocols currently in place in the first world.

Riots are a touchy thing and you can't just have a default "balls-to-the-wall" response to them. A bad response to a riot can prolongue them and make them worse. Eg. the L.A. area riots that resulted from a gradually increasing trend of bad police responses to a long streak of civil disobedience.

And I'm not generalizing anything. I'm making an assessment of your opinion based on your stated opinions on this matter here and in the other thread on the Vancouver riots.

 

[Sparkybean]

I have not even fully read what you guys are arguing out, and I'm deffo not taking sides but I think when Lone was saying third world he meant something that happens in the third world (and doesn't happen in the first world) rather than an all over generalisation of the third world. I don't agree with stereotypes but I know sometimes I say things similar and people think I'm generalising when I'm not.

People say motorcyclists ride like idiots, not all of us do. I used to say that a lot though, because you do see squids on a mission to an early death. I think it can be just a bad figure of speech (I could be wrong, just sharing what was going through my head).

Anyway I live near London and can not believe this. A friend said on Facebook "We are hosting the Olympics next year in London, what on earth are the rest of the world thinking watching the news"?

 

[Nelly]

No, I know some people who were affected as they lived quite near some of the apparent hotspots and they are very angry that the army wasn't called in immediately to shut the areas down.

As for why the army wasn't called in and what more could have been done has NOTHING to do with the practices of the third world. It has to do with improving the protocols currently in place in the first world.

Riots are a touchy thing and you can't just have a default "balls-to-the-wall" response to them. A bad response to a riot can prolongue them and make them worse. Eg. the L.A. area riots that resulted from a gradually increasing trend of bad police responses to a long streak of civil disobedience.

And I'm not generalizing anything. I'm making an assessment of your opinion based on your stated opinions on this matter here and in the other thread on the Vancouver riots.

I was sat there last night ready to have a riot in my kitchen as I watched SKY news.
The Police do not have access to water cannon. I was begging for martial law to be declared. The Police were adopting a strategy to keep the various groups from meeting up and potentially creating a stronger more disruptive force.
The Police do have access to tear gas. I don't know if this is contraindicated with youths?
The British Police have always prided there ability to Police openly in conjunction with the community. Maybe this needs to be looked at.
It soon became clear that the violence that was unleashed had very little to do with the shooting of Mark Duggan. One of the SKY reports who lives in Camden stopped to teenage girls coming out of a clothing shop. He asked "Why are you doing this"?
" To get our taxes back". I mean for FS have either of these two children actually contributed to the tax system?
There is a bigger problem that needs to be addressed in English society.
I am really sad today to consider myself an Englishman. How has society become so broken.
Interestingly the disturbances seem to have been co-ordinated via social networks. Is it possible to close down these sites during public disorder?
The irony of this whole situation, is that if one of the scumbags involved in last nights events is mugged or attacked or needs protection. They rely on the Police.

I am immensely proud of the Police officers who risked their lives last night. They walked a line that few of us have to tread.
I don't blame the fire services for not attending the fires, another sad English phenomena is that Fire crews are attacked when they attend blazes. Often sabotage fires are set just to draw the Fire service in to an ambush.
My heart go's out to all of the people who have lost their homes and lively hoods.

Nelly

 

[Kazza]

It absolutely sickens me to see what is happening at the UK at the moment.

Remember people, this can happen ANYWHERE.

Australia had riots a couple of years ago, the US, Canada - can happen anywhere.

I have a neice in Clapham at the moment - doing her 2 year stint there, as many young Aussies do. Waiting to hear she's ok.

It is just a bunch of criminals and yobs causing trouble. It has nothing to do with the man that got shot. That was just their excuse.

Stay safe everyone

 

[Nelly]

It absolutely sickens me to see what is happening at the UK at the moment.

Remember people, this can happen ANYWHERE.

Australia had riots a couple of years ago, the US, Canada - can happen anywhere.

I have a neice in Clapham at the moment - doing her 2 year stint there, as many young Aussies do. Waiting to hear she's ok.

It is just a bunch of criminals and yobs causing trouble. It has nothing to do with the man that got shot. That was just their excuse.

Stay safe everyone

I hope your niece is safe, lets us know.
Nelly

 

[spine]

It is disgusting what these youths are doing. It's nothing to do with Mark Duggan. They see it as an opportunity to smash stuff up, loot and set fire to things without being stopped or caught. Theresa May keeps saying there will be consequences and punishments to those who've taken part but with prisons full, where are these criminals gonna go?

Many are underage, none will be put in prison, if they fine them do you really think they will pay? I tell you what they should do, stick them on the front line in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bit of National Service, put these scumbags to some actual use, cos lets face facts: NONE of these young hoodlums will ever get off their backside and get a job. They'd rather steal, wreck stuff and be on the dole.

What they need to do if it kicks off tonight is to get tear gas and use the fire engine hose pipes and blast the rioters with water. I really don't know why the police aren't chasing them down and giving them a good belting with the truncheon. That's what they need. But none of these rioters are afraid of the police because they are running riot without being stopped. So they will continue. It leaves the rest of the UK (the normal people) in fear for our lives, property and business.

My heart goes out to all who have lost their homes and businesses. These scumbags should be taught a lesson they'll never forget.:spank:

 

[hk_fz6_05]

maybe these aren't just "random scumbags who won't get off their ass, cut their hair and get a job". might just happen that people don't risk prison and physical harm just because they're ill behaved.

maybe a little perspective
There is a context to London's riots that can't be ignored | Nina Power | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

 

[Popeye70]

In some societies (especially in the western world) it seems like it's the individual first, then the local community and finally the society in general. If a person has the opportunity to take something that is not his/hers with no or low risk of getting caught, many people will break the law and steal. The pressure of a successfull lifestyle, image, bling-bling and the want to have the latest and greatest create criminals by opportunity.

Remember the earthquake in Japan and the TV images of the survivors? Total chaos, but no looting, no robberies, no nothing. Just people helping people the best they could.

In countries like Japan, there is a "community and scociety first" way of thinking, and a much less selfish and egotistical society, almost to the self-destructive. Honour is very important, almost to the stupid sometimes. Of course there are disadvantages to this as well (they work 'til they drop, won't leave work until their boss leaves etc), but they do not use any opportunity to enrichen themselves on behalf of an innocent third party.

 

[dxh24]

Honestly, I would not doubt that thing sort of thing happens in the U.S. the next couple of years. I honestly hope not but i believe it might be inevitable depending on circumstances... The whole debt ceiling thing, our credit rating adjustment, Bush tax breaks gone soon...I expect there will be a lot of unhappy people in the near future.

Anyways, my heart goes out to those affected in London, and Kudos to the Police who were on scene.