600cc to replace 250 GP Bikes

Dunno

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Rules just published for the new 600cc four strokes, Moto2, that will replace the current 250 GP bikes.

Moto2: 250cc replacement class regulations announced | The Official MotoGP Website

http://www.fim.ch/sec/documents/f_6127.pdf

Interesting reading. Notice the "No oval piston" clause. I love the 2 strokes & wish we went back to 500cc 2 strokes in the premier class. Those bikes had a knack of sorting the men from the boys, but hopefully the new 600s span the gap from the track to the road :eek:
 

bmccrary

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Well we should see some major changes in a few years with in the 600cc bikes. Just like the new crank on the R1, some inovations will be found on the 600 bikes in the near future I imagine.

-bryan
 

dako81

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Interesting reading. Notice the \"No oval piston\" clause. I love the 2 strokes & wish we went back to 500cc 2 strokes in the premier class. Those bikes had a knack of sorting the men from the boys, but hopefully the new 600s span the gap from the track to the road :eek:

Yea, saw that. Never heard of oval pistons. Am I out of the loop?
 

Hellgate

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Interesting reading. Notice the \"No oval piston\" clause. I love the 2 strokes & wish we went back to 500cc 2 strokes in the premier class. Those bikes had a knack of sorting the men from the boys, but hopefully the new 600s span the gap from the track to the road :eek:

I agree, I love two strokes too. Four strokes just aren't the same.

I was hoping the 600cc rules would allow for some cool technology but it looks pretty conventional. I'm sure it won't be, but on the surface the current R6 looks like a more advanced power plant configuration with adjustable intake runners, etc.

Now the chassis is wide open with the exception of "exotic materials" and carbon fiber wheels.

FIM stated the goal is to keep the cost down which really is a good idea to promote more teams. Two stroke GP bikes are just too damn expensive to race.
 

dako81

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Honda experimented with oval piston to make room for an eight valve head, very cool, very, very complex. The idea was to use the technology in endurance racers. Note the twin rods and plugs.

View attachment 11173 View attachment 11174

Yea, I google'd it afterwards. Very interesting.

Also, I thought the rule about letting people buy your engines was very interesting. Is this common?
 
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Hellgate

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Yea, I google'd it afterwards. Very interesting.

Also, I thought the rule about letting people buy your engines was very interesting. Is this common?

It is. The idea is that you suspect someone of cheating. You can't force someone to tear the engine down, however you can buy their engine so you can bare the costs of the tear down. Most racing clubs have some varitation of the rule. The SCCA has one very similar for the Spec racing classes.
 

mstewar1

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While I understand that racing in the 250 class was always a bit of an artform -- keeping the little thing up to speed by staying smooth -- I have to admit that I never really got into watching it.

And I often wondered how the riders dealt with the jump from the little 250's to the full gp bikes. Seems like it could be a little extreme. Maybe this'll help with the transition. Maybe the folks who get bumped up to gp from 600's will be a little more competitive from the start. Then again, Rossi never really had any issues...but there's only one Rossi.

I didn't follow/read the link, I suppose they'll still have the 125 class?
 

Bruce McCrary

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I agree, I love two strokes too. Four strokes just aren't the same.

FIM stated the goal is to keep the cost down which really is a good idea to promote more teams. Two stroke GP bikes are just too damn expensive to race.

Interesting statement as exactly the opposite is true in the off road world. Two strokes can be completely rebuilt for less than half the cost when using comparable thumper pieces and about a quarter of the cost in the event of catastrophic failure. Something that is becoming way to commonplace with the 11,000 rpm RFS engines.

The factories and AMA were, and to a point still do push the 'environmentally friendly' aspect of a four stroke over a two stroke primarily due to the absence of oil in the fuel and less efficient combustion processes, and the un-educated public imagines the four stroke to be a quieter running bike.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

In real world applications the overwhelming majority of RFS owner/operators replace the factory exhaust systems, air filter and carb jetting in order to get that little bit of extra HP (and noise, that they must think is worth a few seconds per lap or a few extra HP in of itself) which makes the engines at least as 'dirty' if not more so than a typical two stroke. Remember, as a rule lean is mean on a two stroke, but fat is where it's at with a thumper. Not to mention that the type of noise produced by an RFS engine carries much much further than that of a two stroke.

What's really sad is that two stroke development was on the way to making what I feel would have been some significant break throughs but it all seemed to stop short of the final stages of development and mass production.

Several years ago (seems like it was in the 80's) Honda raced a bike in Baja and a few other desert events called the EXP that was raced by Al Baker if memory serves. This bike used specially coated internal engine parts that allowed it to run a then unique synthetic oil at an unheard of 100:1 mixture ratio.

Then a few years ago they were experimenting with the EXP 2, ( Quick Take: Honda EXP-2 - Motorcycle.com ) an updated version of the original but utilizing more modern technology such as fuel injection. The engine appeared to be a huge step in the right direction, and then just disappeared to the best of my knowledge. A few years later Honda began heavily pushing four strokes and wanted to return to being known as the 'Four Stroke Company" and completely abandoned two stroke development and production.

At the beginning of this decade Polaris dropped a bomb on it's dealer network and the public alike by introducing not only an entirely new hull design for it's PWC line, but several new power-plants as well. Including a multi-cylinder fuel injected two stroke that was supposedly certified for use in California! Then, less than two years later and after spending millions on development on these all new PWC's they completely abandoned the market and not only quit producing and selling the new watercraft but quickly ramped down any support of older in service PWC's as well.

*insert Twilight Zone theme music*

Conspiracies? Or maybe just a marketing ploy to force the public into not only buy more high priced parts in less time, but making them less user friendly resulting in less owner done maintenance and quicker trade in cycles as well?

*more do-do-do-do - do-do-do-do music*

Hmmmmm... Kinda makes you wonder huh?

;) Bruce
 
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Hellgate

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Interesting statement as exactly the opposite is true in the off road world. Two strokes can be completely rebuilt for less than half the cost when using comparable thumper pieces and about a quarter of the cost in the event of catastrophic failure. Something that is becoming way to commonplace with the 11,000 rpm RFS engines.

The factories and AMA were, and to a point still do push the 'environmentally friendly' aspect of a four stroke over a two stroke primarily due to the absence of oil in the fuel and less efficient combustion processes, and the un-educated public imagines the four stroke to be a quieter running bike.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

In real world applications the overwhelming majority of RFS owner/operators replace the factory exhaust systems, air filter and carb jetting in order to get that little bit of extra HP (and noise, that they must think is worth a few seconds per lap or a few extra HP in of itself) which makes the engines at least as 'dirty' if not more so than a typical two stroke. Remember, as a rule lean is mean on a two stroke, but fat is where it's at with a thumper. Not to mention that the type of noise produced by an RFS engine carries much much further than that of a two stroke.

What's really sad is that two stroke development was on the way to making what I feel would have been some significant break throughs but it all seemed to stop short of the final stages of development and mass production.

Several years ago (seems like it was in the 80's) Honda raced a bike in Baja and a few other desert events called the EXP that was raced by Al Baker if memory serves. This bike used specially coated internal engine parts that allowed it to run a then unique synthetic oil at an unheard of 100:1 mixture ratio.

Then a few years ago they were experimenting with the EXP 2, ( Quick Take: Honda EXP-2 - Motorcycle.com ) an updated version of the original but utilizing more modern technology such as fuel injection. The engine appeared to be a huge step in the right direction, and then just disappeared to the best of my knowledge. A few years later Honda began heavily pushing four strokes and wanted to return to being known as the 'Four Stroke Company" and completely abandoned two stroke development and production.

At the beginning of this decade Polaris dropped a bomb on it's dealer network and the public alike by introducing not only an entirely new hull design for it's PWC line, but several new power-plants as well. Including a multi-cylinder fuel injected two stroke that was supposedly certified for use in California! Then, less than two years later and after spending millions on development on these all new PWC's they completely abandoned the market and not only quit producing and selling the new watercraft but quickly ramped down any support of older in service PWC's as well.

*insert Twilight Zone theme music*

Conspiracies? Or maybe just a marketing ploy to force the public into not only buy more high priced parts in less time, but making them less user friendly resulting in less owner done maintenance and quicker trade in cycles as well?

*more do-do-do-do - do-do-do-do music*

Hmmmmm... Kinda makes you wonder huh?

;) Bruce

Great post Bruce, thank you.

I agree, the cost of rebuilding a two stroke is cheap compared to a four. To top end my RZ; pistons, rings, machine costs, gaskets was about $250 bucks, maybe, and the was for two cyclinders. I could knock the work out in less than 8 hours, probably 4.

After the new four stroke rules were published several racers and teams were skeptical for the vary reasons you stated, too many moving parts to test/replace/rebuild so the cost will not be any less.

Years ago I was looking into racing a Spec Racer Ford in the SCCA. SCCA Enterprises Before I jumped in with both feet I talked with several racers and they stated that in order to be in the top 10 not only did you have to drive well, but you needed to buy several engines, dyno them and pick the fastest one. (how's that for run on? :thumbup:) Needless to say I didn't bother, what's the point as it still boils down to how much money you have. $$$ = Speed.

I have a feeling that with the new GP 600 the factory will spend the bucks to find the fastest motors and the privateer will have to race what he has, which is right back where we are.

I'm not up on the new two stroke technology at all, but I've heard it is much, much cleaner than what we used to ride.

Time will tell....
 
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