Shootings

[iSteve]

I'm a American and don't own a gun. Never really felt the need for one don't even like them. I have friends that own guns some are hunters and others think they're Clint Eastwood.

But this tragic event has more to do with violence, evil and a sick bast@rd then the method he used.

Every time I think of this I feel tears welling up. This is not suppose to happen.

 

[made_in_izmir]

I'm sorry for usa . Maybe you will be angry to me , but you came to iraq and afghanistan , you killed thousands of innocent people together criminals , innocent families , children , elderly people . Can you understand what they was feeling ? Feel it , in your heart .

Sorry again .

 

[outasight20]

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

 

[Tailgate]

I'm sorry for usa . Maybe you will be angry to me , but you came to iraq and afghanistan , you killed thousands of innocent people together criminals , innocent families , children , elderly people . Can you understand what they was feeling ? Feel it , in your heart .

Sorry again .

Welcome to the forum. What about Turkey, are there not crazy people in your country, too? As far as Iraq and Afghanistan, I wish, yeah, that USA would stay out. Governments lie too much.

 

[Neal]

What's happening is all the obscene TV shows, movies, rap music, video games, etc. are finally beginning to catch up with us.

Nonsense. None of those things have anything at all to do with shooting nor will they ever.


This kids physiological damage can from legitimate causes the Divorce of his parents and his social rejection at school both which are clearly documented.

In perfectly logical cold blooded fashion he killed his mother who he blamed for the Divorce then went back to a school and killed a bunch of people were he also had a terrible social experience.

His actions are horrific but not shocking in the least bit.

 

[iSteve]

Nonsense. None of those things have anything at all to do with shooting nor will they ever.


This kids physiological damage can from legitimate causes the Divorce of his parents and his social rejection at school both which are clearly documented.

In perfectly logical cold blooded fashion he killed his mother who he blamed for the Divorce then went back to a school and killed a bunch of people were he also had a terrible social experience.

His actions are horrific but not shocking in the least bit.

This is just your opinion it has no more validity then someone who says the opposite. You can never know what makes someone do what they do. And you certainly can not say it will never have a influence on someone.

 

[Neal]

This is just your opinion it has no more validity then someone who says the opposite. You can never know what makes someone do what they do. And you certainly can not say it will never have a influence on someone.

Clearly, you don't know the meaning of the world Validity. Which explains why you are wrong.

 

[outasight20]

Nonsense. None of those things have anything at all to do with shooting nor will they ever.

Right, so increasing violence in mass media, which almost all youth are exposed to and take part in, has absolutely no effect on their outward aggression and violence towards other people.

Your post, in my opinion, is nonsense. But I'm not in the mood to start an e-argument. There are too many variables which lead people to act out like this. Discussing them on a motorcycle forum is the furthest thing from locating the cause and implementing a solution.

 

[Ssky0078]

Clearly, you don't know the meaning of the world Validity. Which explains why you are wrong.

Rather than going back and forth, both of you have a point. I tend to agree with Neal, and the Merovingian from the Matrix. "Causality, cause and effect. Choice is merely an illusion given to those with without power by those with power. Why is the only source of power, without it you are powerless"

After going through the Family Court system and losing my son I know that it is mostly bull $hit. It seems to be about generating income for attorneys and (judges, they were lawyers once), covering their asses for bad decisions and appeasing thier connections. I was ordered to go to a psychologist for a custody evaluation and another one for a mental health evaluation. The woman custody evaluator had no factual data on me, but instead took everything mother said and spun a story to make me look bad. I found out that this woman would pander to whoever had the lawyer (I was self-represented and my ex was rich) with the biggest law firm. On top of that she had been sued twice and 7 psychology board complaints in the last 2 years. The only reason she still had a license is that during legal work a psychologist receives judicial immunity and can basically do a ****ty job then get away with it. The mental health evaluator even said in his report, there are no objective findings indicating mental health issues, but taking into consideration mothers concerns blah blah blah. I was told that often during custody cases mental health is brought up as a way for the person making the allegations of an issue to get what they want, the judge uses the evaluators because if anything happens he can say there was a professional evaluatioin.

Back to the point, I was told it was my choices that brought about the situation I was in. In reality my choices never harmed anyone, other than my ex's ego when I messed around on her. And when she said that she would take my son away and I would never see him again I said she had no idea how far I would go and hurt her if she did that. She had also threatened to leave the country with him. In my imagination I am seeing some delta force $hit in whatever town her crap family comes from.

So in a way this may sound messed up, but if my son went off on his mother and hurt her, I would only feel bad for the trouble he would be in. She created the situation, she alienated me from him, she chose to change his life in irreparable ways. My father taught me to respect other people and respect life. I would teach my son the same and kick my sons ass if he took it out on anyone else though, those other kids weren't the main cause (since the guy was 20 and it was a grade school).

Ultimately there is no definitive one point solution to an issue like this. The human mind wants a 1 to 1 relationship with everything but it's actually infinite. The media, the parents, the kids at school, the teachers, the neighborhood, the houses, the cars, the food the guy ate, everything along the way shaped that young man's character and created the perfect mixture for the event that took place. Until the world we live in can achieve balance in it's wants to needs and respect for all people this type of thing will keep happening. I'm afraid it will just increase at an alarming rate.

 

[made_in_izmir]

Welcome to the forum. What about Turkey, are there not crazy people in your country, too? As far as Iraq and Afghanistan, I wish, yeah, that USA would stay out. Governments lie too much.

Thanks .

Yes of course there are crazy people everywhere . Individual armament ban on Turkiye , free at Usa . You can buy a gun like buying toys . This is not true .

 

[FZ09Bandit]

Thanks .

Yes of course there are crazy people everywhere . Individual armament ban on Turkiye , free at Usa . You can buy a gun like buying toys . This is not true .

My heart pours for those affected by this monstrous tragedy.
Leave those two wars out of it.,that is a whole new thread.
I signed up in a time if war. To help people and save the lives of my brothers and sisters fighting.

Combat Medic 2-1 armored, 1-1 cav.

This has nothing to do with war. Leave it peaceful orbit would get shutdown. Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns.

And if we make guns illegal, why not make meth, crack cocaine, and heroine illegal too.

Discretion should be used by parents to keep there children away from violence until they are old enough to understand the difference between reality and fantasy

 

[CowtownBiomed]

Its all a matter of numbers IMO...so lets crunch some...

They say 9/10 people in the USA own guns..

U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people | Reuters

They also say that 1 in 5 have a mental health issue of some sort..

Mental Illness Affects 1 in 5 U.S. Adults, Survey Finds - US News and World Report

The population of the USA is about 312 million...

Population in the U.S. - Google Public Data Explorer

So... a quick crunch of the numbers...

312M X 0.9 X 0.2 = 56.16 Million people with guns, who have a mential health issue...56 Million people..

Statisticaly speaking of course, rough numbers of course, but still...

56,000,000 people who are potenialy armed and not mentaly well...

When you put it that way, it really is a surprise that these types of events arent more common...

Some say its a gun problem, some say its a mental health issue, others want to blame video games, or over crowding...
Its just numbers...eventualy one of the 56 million is going to go overboard, and it will happen, again and again...until the numbers change..

 

[Dan]

This is so sad. I can't watch the news without tears.

I know how you guys feel now. In 2004 when the so called "libertarians" killed about 200 children in Beslan, all the Russians found out what it is.

I hope that the government learned its lesson and now they are going to change something. After "Beslan" all the schools in Russia have guards. You are not able to walk into a school without talking to these guys.

Many Moscovites bring flowers and toys to the American Embassy in Moscow. You are not alone.

 

[outasight20]

Its all a matter of numbers IMO...so lets crunch some...

They say 9/10 people in the USA own guns..

U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people | Reuters

They also say that 1 in 5 have a mental health issue of some sort..

Mental Illness Affects 1 in 5 U.S. Adults, Survey Finds - US News and World Report

The population of the USA is about 312 million...

Population in the U.S. - Google Public Data Explorer

So... a quick crunch of the numbers...

312M X 0.9 X 0.2 = 56.16 Million people with guns, who have a mential health issue...56 Million people..

Statisticaly speaking of course, rough numbers of course, but still...

56,000,000 people who are potenialy armed and not mentaly well...

When you put it that way, it really is a surprise that these types of events arent more common...

Some say its a gun problem, some say its a mental health issue, others want to blame video games, or over crowding...
Its just numbers...eventualy one of the 56 million is going to go overboard, and it will happen, again and again...until the numbers change..

Your numbers are severely flawed. 90 guns per 100 people does not mean 9/10 people own guns. It means for every 100 people, there are 90 registered guns in this country. Some people are gun enthusiasts and own hundreds of guns. And many people who own guns have more than one. Second, 1 in 5 with mental illness does not mean 1 in 5 that is insane and willing to shoot innocent people.

Yes, there are a lot of guns in this country. There are also a lot of people in this country. Neither of these statistics relate in any way to people going on shooting rampages. You could have 1 gun per 100 people and every person who owns a gun could be insane. There would then be many more shootings going on. The numbers aren't the problem. It's the people that's the problem.

 

[CowtownBiomed]

I understand...which is why I provided the little linky things..

Statisticaly speaking of course, rough numbers of course, but still....

You can argue all you want wether 90% = 90 out of 100 or 9 out of 10 all you want...it is still 90%
The 1 in 5 with mental healt issues, is just that..sure 100% of them will not be bat **** crazy, some will have simple depression for example...but still...20% of the American popluation (North American including Canada and Mexico) have some form of mental health issue..

We could widdle down those numbers considerably...granted..and yes, what I have posted is VERY simplistic..but those are the numbers, off the top..

We are "potentialy" dealing with over 50 Million people...even if we say 10% are bat **** crazy thats still 5,000,000
The numbers are stagering...

 

[Ruggybuggy]

I understand...which is why I provided the little linky things..



You can argue all you want wether 90% = 90 out of 100 or 9 out of 10 all you want...it is still 90%
The 1 in 5 with mental healt issues, is just that..sure 100% of them will not be bat **** crazy, some will have simple depression for example...but still...20% of the American popluation (North American including Canada and Mexico) have some form of mental health issue..

We could widdle down those numbers considerably...granted..and yes, what I have posted is VERY simplistic..but those are the numbers, off the top..

We are "potentialy" dealing with over 50 Million people...even if we say 10% are bat **** crazy thats still 5,000,000
The numbers are stagering...

One crazy with a full automatic gun can do a terrible amount of harm. Stricter gun law to outlaw certain types of guns and who can own one could reduce mass shootings. I don't believe that guns should be banned but the general public shoudn't be able to own a M16.

 

[Neal]

Right, so increasing violence in mass media, which almost all youth are exposed to and take part in, has absolutely no effect on their outward aggression and violence towards other people.

Your post, in my opinion, is nonsense. But I'm not in the mood to start an e-argument. There are too many variables which lead people to act out like this. Discussing them on a motorcycle forum is the furthest thing from locating the cause and implementing a solution.

Yes, it does have an effect and a positive one. Youth in our country are even more opposed to war then past generations.

 

[Dan]

I'm sorry for usa . Maybe you will be angry to me , but you came to iraq and afghanistan , you killed thousands of innocent people together criminals , innocent families , children , elderly people . Can you understand what they was feeling ? Feel it , in your heart .

Sorry again .

The Ottoman Empire invaded many countries. The Turks killed thousands of innocent people including children and old men. My question to you is - do Turkish children deserve to be killed just because of this? Do Turkish parents deserve to lose their kids just to find out "what they WAS feeling"?

Let me guess. You have no children, right? You have never served in the military, right? You have never been to Iraq, Afghanistan, the US, right? It is very easy to judge other people sitting in front of a huge TV and drinking juice. Do you want to judge others? Enlist in the army and go to Iraq. Then you will receive the right to talk about "killed innocent people".

I heard this kind of crap many times when the Russian army "was killing innocent people in Chechnya". I know many guys who served in the military and thank God they survived there. They told me many interesting stories about how "the innocent women and children" cut off heads of Russian soldiers. How they tortured them. Also I remember the 80's when the Russian army "was killing innocent people" in Afghanistan. I was a boy, but I remember the stories about "innocent people". I heard them from those who have been there, but not from the news. I would kill those "innocents" too and I'm pretty sure that you would do the same.

I don't want to be rude, but you have no idea what you are talking about. That's why I would keep my mouth shut if I were you.

 

[Ssky0078]

Its all a matter of numbers IMO...so lets crunch some...

They say 9/10 people in the USA own guns..

U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people | Reuters

They also say that 1 in 5 have a mental health issue of some sort..

Mental Illness Affects 1 in 5 U.S. Adults, Survey Finds - US News and World Report

The population of the USA is about 312 million...

Population in the U.S. - Google Public Data Explorer

So... a quick crunch of the numbers...

312M X 0.9 X 0.2 = 56.16 Million people with guns, who have a mential health issue...56 Million people..

Statisticaly speaking of course, rough numbers of course, but still...

56,000,000 people who are potenialy armed and not mentaly well...

When you put it that way, it really is a surprise that these types of events arent more common...

Some say its a gun problem, some say its a mental health issue, others want to blame video games, or over crowding...
Its just numbers...eventualy one of the 56 million is going to go overboard, and it will happen, again and again...until the numbers change..

I've heard this argument before but I would have to disagree with you (on your numbers, not on your idea). In fact only 1/3 US homes has a gun and the total number of gun owners is down to 1/5. The US has fewer individuals that own more guns. So if we check your math. That is roughly 62 million gun owners and up to 103 million homes with guns. And if you're ratio of individuals with mental health is 1/5 then your down to potentialy 12.4 million by crunching the numbers broadly like that.

Another approach to the statistics. Now you need to look more closely at those types of mental illness that typically would present with homicidal ideation. I would break it down to anti-social personality disorder/sociopathic personality disorder (7.6 million, Klebold and Harris), schizoid personality disorder (6.5 million, example ted kacyznski), scizophrenia (3.2 million, David Berkowitz) , oppositional defiant disorder (10 million approx, Tim McVeigh), and bipolar disorder (12.4 million, Kip Kinkel)

Of the mental illnesses likely to commit a violent act I would include anti-social personality disorder, scizophrenics, oppositional defiant disorder and bipolar disorder. I would not include schizoid personality disorder because they most commonly want to be left alone, but may have a comorbid disorder with another one of the more violent disorders (typically anti-social personality disorder). So let's estimate that amount to be about 33.2 million of those with a mental health issue that may be connected to violence. Of that approximately 1/2 seek out and get care for their issues. So we are down to 16 million.

Now let's apply the percent likelihood of those with a potentially violent mental health issue living in a home with a gun. That should cut us down by at least 1/3 to around 5 million. Of that amount we are usually only talking about the sickest 1% or even 0.1% (hell judging by the fact that there seems to be only 1-3 of these type incidences per year, we are down to 0.0001%) of the individual that would be lilkely to act out on such impulses and usually they have one or more of the violent mental health issues. I would guess only 5000 to 50000 of the mentally unwell to have access to a gun and capable of carrying out such a violent act.

Another thought burner is that schizophrenics are usually recognized and treated early, as well as not fuctioning well enough to carry out an incident. The incidence of bipolar identification and treatment early is increasing, as well as they often are not fucntioning well enough to plan out an event. ppositional defiant disorder and Anti-social personality individuals are often in trouble in life early and may have already lost their rights to own a firearm (think kids that go from juvey, to jail, to probation, to jail).


Analysis: Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns - CNN.com

Landmark Survey Reports on the Prevalence of Personality Disorders in the United States, August 2, 2004 Press Release - National Institutes of Health (NIH)

 

[CowtownBiomed]

That's why I would keep my mouth shut if I were you.

I disagree Dan, open discusion, whether it be misinformed or not, is a good thing.
Yes atrocities happen in war, but this isnt about war, this is about an American, killing inocent child americans.
Sure Imzar's post was off topic, but it does show how he/she feels about the subject and as such has as much value as your opinion does..

regardless, both you and Imzar, can understand the unbelievable grief we are all feeling in regard to this event I am sure..
THAT IMO, is what matters...


Yes Ssky, I understand, we can widdle down my original numbers considerably..
So from your numbers were are down to what? 50,000? Still amaizing numbers...regardless..