Oil Level Check Question

[pookamatic]

On weights... FYI - The owners manual calls for only two or three weights, however, the service manual mentions them PLUS a few others.

On warming/not warming. In my limited knowledge, I see absolutely zero reason to warm up before checking. The logic for the warm up is so the oil will be thin and drip down to the pan for a proper reading. Well, it gets real warm every time I ride and drips down to the bottom. 10 minutes or 10 years, Gravity takes it from there.

The only plausible exception to relying on rides to provide a proper warming would be if you parked it on the side stand then after it cooled, center standed it to check, one could argue viscous oil wouldn't properly level the few degree change.

Ok... One more. Thermal expansion (didn't we just do this with fuel? ).

Either way, I think we're splitting hairs.

 

[mave2911]

I highlighted in bold, parts of your post that completly contradict each other and doesn't make sense what so ever...

Not so, my good Sir!

I was referring to not having to warm the bike up to check the oil IF the bike was parked on the centre stand when last you rode.

If you DO warm it up before checking the oil, you must make sure that a) the bike reaches operating temperature, and b) you allow enough time for this oil to drain back to the sump. (couple of minutes)

Per my 2007 owners manual, page 6-11, Paraphrasing, with the bike straight up, Yamaha calls for warming the engine for several minutes, wait a few minutes for the oil to settle and then check it

I take this as, unless you parked the bike on the centre stand when the bike was last at operating temperature, then you must warm the bike up for several minutes (enough to reach operating temperature) and then let it settle for a couple of minutes.

As I said, I check my oil first thing in the morning, and when the oil is cold, it's easier to see (and you don't get the oil up the dipstick hole making the level hard to see)

BUT - I always park my bike on the centre stand when last I rode.

If you park on the side stand, and the next morning hold the bike upright, or use the centre stand, the oil has just been sloshed around, and is slow to respond.

Parking on the centre stand, the night before, gives the best results.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re posts #21 and #22.

Yesterday, my bike was stone cold, I was doing some basic maintainance/cleaning on it.

For S&G's, I checked the dip stick WITHOUT STARTING/WARMING, etc the engine, Stone cold on the center stand... The oil level will NOW SHOW ABOUT 3/4" ABOVE THE HASH MARKS. Please try this on your bike.


Without adding oil or doing anything but what Yamaha recommends, run the bike several minutes and let it sit, then check the oil, the oil level is now at the top of the hash marks(full)...

Again, please try this on your bike stone cold....

 

[pookamatic]

Re posts #21 and #22.

Yesterday, my bike was stone cold, I was doing some basic maintainance/cleaning on it.

For S&G's, I checked the dip stick WITHOUT STARTING/WARMING, etc the engine, Stone cold on the center stand... The oil level will NOW SHOW ABOUT 3/4" ABOVE THE HASH MARKS. Please try this on your bike.


Without adding oil or doing anything but what Yamaha recommends, run the bike several minutes and let it sit, then check the oil, the oil level is now at the top of the hash marks(full)...

Again, please try this on your bike stone cold....

Wow. That doesn't make sense but will do.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Not so, my good Sir!

I was referring to not having to warm the bike up to check the oil IF the bike was parked on the centre stand when last you rode.

If you DO warm it up before checking the oil, you must make sure that a) the bike reaches operating temperature, and b) you allow enough time for this oil to drain back to the sump. (couple of minutes)



I take this as, unless you parked the bike on the centre stand when the bike was last at operating temperature, then you must warm the bike up for several minutes (enough to reach operating temperature) and then let it settle for a couple of minutes.


Cheers,
Rick

No where in the manual does it say to warm the engine to operating temperatures. My bike usually runs about 170F fully warmed (thats the coolant temp, not the oil temp) and riding will take probably 5-7 minutes of easy riding(again, that's the coolant temp, NOT the oil temp). Unless you manual is different than mine, several minutes is NOT letting it sit for 5-10 minutes running to get the oil hot and the fan comes on.

If you would, please post the page in the owners/shop manual where it states to let the bike sit and idle until the fan comes on as I can't find it in my owners manual and would like to do it correctly..

IMHO, if you come back from a ride, bikes fully warm, I would/could check the oil after several minutes of sitting (on the centerstand) so the oil drained back down to the pan to get a correct reading.

Or, I suppose you could leave it on the centerstand overnight, check it dead cold and make sure its approx 3/4" ABOVE the hash marks, AS IT WILL BE, again, please check this on your bike.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Wow. That doesn't make sense but will do.

A lot of the oil on a warm engine is now out of the sump, and up in the engine, thus the lower level on a warmed/hot engine just turned off at the dip stick..

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Duplicate post...

 

[pookamatic]

A lot of the oil on a warm engine is now out of the sump, and up in the engine, thus the lower level on a warmed/hot engine just turned off at the dip stick..

But the owner's manual clearly states to "wait a few minutes for the oil to settle."

I can see the argument for a hot-calibrated dipstick to compensate for a relatively insignificant amount of expansion (people tend to check while getting gas), but 3/4" of an inch is a big change between cold and warm.

So if we can agree that, by your testing, this significant difference is due to some unspecified amount of oil in the top half of the engine, the next question I have would be... how long is too long to wait before it starts reading high? In other words, how long does it take for half/some/smidgen/all of the oil to drain?

Side question - what is the range of the high and low mark on the dipstick equate to? I know US cars are typically 1 quart.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

But the owner's manual clearly states to "wait a few minutes for the oil to settle."

I can see the argument for a hot-calibrated dipstick to compensate for a relatively insignificant amount of expansion (people tend to check while getting gas), but 3/4" of an inch is a big change between cold and warm.

So if we can agree that, by your testing, this significant difference is due to some unspecified amount of oil in the top half of the engine, the next question I have would be... how long is too long to wait before it starts reading high? In other words, how long does it take for half/some/smidgen/all of the oil to drain?

Side question - what is the range of the high and low mark on the dipstick equate to? I know US cars are typically 1 quart.

As for how long it takes for the oil to rise above the hash marks, I don't know, never tryed it, Probably a half hour, a guestimate.

I don't believe the difference in the level is because the oil expands, but because its now filled the oil filter fully, oil is now up in the head, in the nooks and cranies, transmission gears, etc... A completly dry engine (Just rebuilt), will take more oil than an engine just getting an oil change. If you've ever pulled an engine apart, you'll end up with newspaper under the block as when you pull cases/split cases, (EVEN AFTER DRAINING), oil continues to drain out. I'm not talking a quart, but enough to make a mess.. When installing new fiber clutch plates, they (in a wet clutch system) should be soaked in oil for at least an hour.

I usually let mine drain when doing an oil change at least a half hour and will put it on both the side stand and center stand to get as much old out as possible (as there's lots of nooks and crannies in the engine).

I'm guestimating the difference between the high and low hash marks is less than 1/4 quart. I keep mine at the top hash mark, it doesn't burn/leak any oil so on an oil change, I bring it to the top and I'm good until the next change. (I do check it occasionally but as stated earlier, I don't have to top it off)..

If your bike is cold, put it on the centerstand, let it sit for a little bit and check it. If you normally keep the level at the top of the hash marks (when checked per the owners manual), when checked cold, you will find it ABOVE THE HASH MARKS.

The below pic's are of my last KLR 250 putting in a cam chain. Its a fairly involved job (MUCH MORE than the FZ) as both side covers need to come off, the cams, balancers, rotor, cam chain tensioner, water pump, etc. Point being, all these parts will hold/keep a little bit of residual oil them..

Yamaha designed this particular engine to have the oil checked after running a few minutes and then sitting a few minutes, straight up(centerstand if equipped). A dead cold engine will yeild a HIGH LEVEL.

 

[pookamatic]

For reference, I refer to level as the top-most wet part of the stick, not where the bulb/tear/drip starts (meniscus effect). I also put the stick in hash marks facing up and in towards the engine.

Level last night (cold) was at the top.

Level today after a ride plus sit on center for 8 minutes was ever so lower than top (1/8" or a couple mm lower at most). Tougher to see when it's so thin. Will do another check today after 3-4 minutes, and a couple others at some other intervals and report back.

Again, I think we may be splitting hairs but if there's something interesting to find, I don't mind geeking out on this type of stuff.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Just so we're on the same page, the oil level should be (when checked per the Yamaha owners manual) inbetween the high and low IN THE HASH MARK area...

And yes, I also put the hash mark side facing inwards so when its removed and checked immediatly, its the most accurate...



*I rode the bike about 3 hours ago and put it on the centerstand, (its not dead overnight cold). The oil level, on the stick is EXACTLY 3/4" ABOVE the TOP hash mark, about 1/4" below the plastic lower end of the stick..

 

[Clay350]

It has always been ridiculous to me to change your oil at some preset interval irrespective of the use and type of engine. Not to mention ow many different opinions are out there.

On my car, boat, and bike I am religious about the oil. In general I will use the guidelines as a reference only. The main factors I use to determine oil change is

1. Engine load and the environment its in.
2. How the oil looks on the dipstick.
3. Sound of motor (after familiar with a specific engine its not hard to tell when oil is due)

Regardless I will never go much beyond the 3K mark and never go beyond a season no matter the miles or hours. I have no doubt you could go 6k miles on a oil change but so what? The engine will not last as long or perform as strong.

Clay

 

[FinalImpact]

A lot of the oil on a warm engine is now out of the sump, and up in the engine, thus the lower level on a warmed/hot engine just turned off at the dip stick..

^^ +1 TRUE!

They tell you to run it to prime the circuit, fill the pick up tubes, fill the oil filter, oil galleys and all the passages such that everyone gets the same results.

Lets say a person dumped the oil and filter and when done, they simply filled it to spec with out starting. If they don't run the engine after filling it; checking the stick would yield INACCURATE RESULTS because the new filter and all of the oil galleries would be empty.

The manual is written to over come this.

What I suggest is that whatever you choose to do you repeat the process so you get the same results each time.
So get a base line by following the manual and CHECK IT! Lets say when checked by the MANUAL it SHOWS FULL! Now let it sit and be cold. Lets say its 6.0 mm above the Full mark after it sat over night. This is our base line! This is where is should be when checked cold!

Now you CAN check it cold and it should be 6 mm over the full mark after sitting over night on the center stand.


To the same point that I left in bold up above, oil filters have check valves in them to keep them full of oil so the pump doesn't have to refill the filter each time. ** THIS REDUCES the amount of time the engines runs without oil because the pump does have to prime and build pressure!!! The problem is, some filters leak off the oil over time and drain the filters oil back into the oil sump via the oil pump. This does two things: 1) it changes the oil level making it falsely HIGH! 2) A defective filter hurts the engines life as it starts up dry and this increases wear to the engine.

Again, because bikes sit for various amounts of time, the manual helps give you a base line by leveling the bike, starting the engine, and filling the oil circuit before checking it. It ensures the filter and oil passages are full so you get accurate readings and don't leave town thinking the system is full when its actually a quart low!

Does this make sense to everyone?

 

[mave2911]

Finally got a response from Yamaha: (including spelling mistakes - just copy/pasted from email.)

Dear Rick,

The recommended engine oil level procedure is (as outlined in the owners manaul):

1. Place the vehicle on a level surface and hold it in an upright position
2. Start the engine, warm it up for several minutes, and then turn it off. Note: (This is to bring the oil to operating temperatiure and circulate oil through to all necessary components.)
3. Wait a few minutes until the oil settles. Note: (This allows excess oil time to return to crancase).
4. Remove the engine oil dipstick and wipe it clean, insert it back into the hole (without screwing it in), and then remove it again to check the oil level.
5. If the engine oil is at or below the minimum level mark, remove the oil filler cap, and then add sufficient oil of the recommended type to raise it to the correct level.
6. Insert and tighten the engine oil dipstick, and then install and tighten the oil filler cap.

Engine oil expands with heat and checking oil at operating temperature offers a more acurate oil level reading.
Checking engine oil level cold can give incorrect reading.

Regards,
Duilio Pianca
Customer Relations Department
Yamaha Motor Australia

Cheers,
Rick

 

[regder]

Gotta love oil threads

For what it's worth, I check the level about 10 minutes after reaching normal operating temperature, with the bike on the centre stand.

I've used Rotella T6 5W40 and oem filters for most of the bike's life, changed every ~4k miles. When changing the oil, I try to get about halfway between the hash marks, I find the shifting gets clunky if I put more oil in.

My bike is now close to 60,000 miles with zero engine or transmission issues. Doesn't burn a drop of oil or any other related problems