Making crash cages/race rails for forum members.

[killernoodle]

I dunno if you guys frequent the "other" FZ6 message board, but I'm about to start custom building stunt cages and race rails for the FZ6. Nobody makes a good sturdy kit for our bikes, so I figured I'd step up to that plate. I still haven't 100% decided on a design for the kit, but here are my ideas:

-The kit will be constructed of 1" diameter thick wall steel tubing.
-There will be several variations of the kit tailored for specific applications. A race rail will be available as a beefier alternative to a frame slider and a more extreme stunt cage will be available for those interested in protection against repeated drops or a wicked get-off at a track.
-The base of my kit will be an FS6 frame slider, mainly because the shape is very easy to integrate into the design and they are inexpensive, not to mention its possible to purchase replacement pucks for them online relatively inexpensively. Also, it would be pretty neat to have the option to be able to take the rails off and just have the sliders, a convertible if you will.
-The main goal of the kits will be to give the frame sliders a much sturdier mounting point that should resist bending and breaking the engine mounts when involved in a slide. The stunt cage will provide additional rigidity and also wrap around the motor in such a way that it protects from curbs and other obstacles when stunting around. A slider doesn't do any good if a simple lowside can fold it up, damaging the frame and letting the pavement contact the engine cases anyway. I know this first hand because the attached image below is what happened to my slider in a low speed parking lot incident and it actually bent my frame out a little bit right there.

Now for the bad part, because I will need to buy a tubing bender and a notcher to make these parts, I have to have a commitment from a lot of people to buy these before I can start making them. A good bender costs approximately $500 with a die set and a notcher costs about $150 for one that is going to last. Theoretically, I could start with the simple race rail and sell a bunch of those before I buy the bender since I could quite easily bend those up with a torch and a vise, but I would still need a commitment from buyers to make it all worth my time.

When I made the extended clutch slave levers a while back, I worked out a pretty good system of taking pre-orders and then purchasing all the supplies I needed to do the project afterwards. I had about 30 people do it this way and it worked out great.

So how many of you are interested in this venture? I'm thinking about charging probably $80 for the simple race rails, powdercoated of course in a choice of colors, the sliders cost about $40 on top of that unless you happen to already own FS6 sliders.

LMK what you guys think. Also, if you want to post a picture of your dream stunt cage, please be my guest. If you want to add extras (light mounts, highway peg mounts, etc) please let me know those details as well.:thumbup:

 

[Keits]

Love the idea and would seriously consider putting my money where my mouth is (eh... So to speak) As you develope your design, maybe photoshop an existing FZ6 to give us a visual aid

 

[jamesfz6]

I am interested but i would need to see one.........if they look like they fit the bike i will place an order for one.

 

[jamesfz6]

How fast were you going to get the slider bent like that?

 

[killernoodle]

How fast were you going to get the slider bent like that?

10 or 15 mph. Very low speed parking lot high side over a sandy spot in 20 degree weather.

As far as the photoshop pics, I did a couple in paint but it was for an intermediate style cage between a rail and a full stunt cage. Perhaps I'll have to have 3 design styles? If you can imagine, a simple style race rail would just go between the two top mounting spots, perhaps with another tube going behind the headers for added stability. A full stunt cage would be more triangulated and mount to more spots on the frame.

Again, the design and mounting points aren't finalized. I could, in the drawings below, eliminate the top rail part and emphasize the connection between the lower mount and the front mount with a reinforcing piece and run another piece behind the headers. Like I said, give me some ideas and as soon as I get some tubing I'll try some stuff out.

 

[Nelly]

I dunno if you guys frequent the "other" FZ6 message board, but I'm about to start custom building stunt cages and race rails for the FZ6. Nobody makes a good sturdy kit for our bikes, so I figured I'd step up to that plate. I still haven't 100% decided on a design for the kit, but here are my ideas:

-The kit will be constructed of 1" diameter thick wall steel tubing.
-There will be several variations of the kit tailored for specific applications. A race rail will be available as a beefier alternative to a frame slider and a more extreme stunt cage will be available for those interested in protection against repeated drops or a wicked get-off at a track.
-The base of my kit will be an FS6 frame slider, mainly because the shape is very easy to integrate into the design and they are inexpensive, not to mention its possible to purchase replacement pucks for them online relatively inexpensively. Also, it would be pretty neat to have the option to be able to take the rails off and just have the sliders, a convertible if you will.
-The main goal of the kits will be to give the frame sliders a much sturdier mounting point that should resist bending and breaking the engine mounts when involved in a slide. The stunt cage will provide additional rigidity and also wrap around the motor in such a way that it protects from curbs and other obstacles when stunting around. A slider doesn't do any good if a simple lowside can fold it up, damaging the frame and letting the pavement contact the engine cases anyway. I know this first hand because the attached image below is what happened to my slider in a low speed parking lot incident and it actually bent my frame out a little bit right there.

Now for the bad part, because I will need to buy a tubing bender and a notcher to make these parts, I have to have a commitment from a lot of people to buy these before I can start making them. A good bender costs approximately $500 with a die set and a notcher costs about $150 for one that is going to last. Theoretically, I could start with the simple race rail and sell a bunch of those before I buy the bender since I could quite easily bend those up with a torch and a vise, but I would still need a commitment from buyers to make it all worth my time.

When I made the extended clutch slave levers a while back, I worked out a pretty good system of taking pre-orders and then purchasing all the supplies I needed to do the project afterwards. I had about 30 people do it this way and it worked out great.

So how many of you are interested in this venture? I'm thinking about charging probably $80 for the simple race rails, powdercoated of course in a choice of colors, the sliders cost about $40 on top of that unless you happen to already own FS6 sliders.

LMK what you guys think. Also, if you want to post a picture of your dream stunt cage, please be my guest. If you want to add extras (light mounts, highway peg mounts, etc) please let me know those details as well.:thumbup:

I would be very interested, would it need to be removed to get to the oil filter?
Are you talking about the Yamaha frame sliders that use the bracket?
I have seen posts stating that the OME is crap. I have also witnessed a very damaged bracket that failed to do its job.

Nelly

 

[killernoodle]

Rails 1 and 2 (right and left sides)

 

[GConn]

Well, I am obsessive about protection but I usually find cages to be out of place on a streetbike. These pics made me think that these may not look so bad, but I'd still have to see final product to say

 

[killernoodle]

Rails 3 and 4 (left and right sides)

 

[killernoodle]

Stunt Cage 1 (left and right sides)
The stunt cage will stick significantly farther out from the bike than the rails, the rails will hug the frame and engine.

Which one of the rails is your favorite design?

 

[Sawblade]

I like the very first ones you posted.

 

[rodb]

exactly the kind of things i have been musing over ... but i dont have the physical skills to do much myself (and i am a much better thinker and procrastinator than i am a do-er) i will keep checking back on this thread!

 

[killernoodle]

I would be very interested, would it need to be removed to get to the oil filter?
Are you talking about the Yamaha frame sliders that use the bracket?
I have seen posts stating that the OME is crap. I have also witnessed a very damaged bracket that failed to do its job.

Nelly

I plan on spacing the rails far enough away so that you should be able to to unscrew the oil filter and drop it down as usual. Really, you only need as much clearance as the height of the threads on the oil filter receptacle. Optimally, the rails should not interfere significantly with anything else on the bike like the dipstick, oil filler, and other stuff.

IMO, I have seen too many posts about how someone's Yamaha frame sliders snapped off in a crash only to let the bike get ground down to a pulp. They are crap.

On the other hand, I have also seen posts about people using aftermarket frame sliders that also bend or snap in half and end up damaging the frame too. The rails should prevent this.

 

[CCHOUSEKY]

I'd definitely be interested in 1 through 4, but I have a question. Would these ONLY work with the FS6 sliders, or could other ones be used with them also?

 

[killernoodle]

I will design them around the FS6 sliders for a couple reasons:

The aluminum shaft part is pretty long and should be relatively easy to integrate into the system. It is also exactly 3/4" in diameter: the same as the ID of steel tubing I can buy. This would make the fit basically perfect making for a stronger product. Other frame sliders are different shapes and I'd have to make a different cage for each different brand of slider. This is way too much work for me.

The FS6 sliders are only $40, if I charge $80 for a simple rail the final total comes to about $120, which is still far cheaper than similar ones on the market. As soon as I finalize my plans I'm going to talk to the guy at FS6 to see if he and I can work out a deal with a kit of some kind.

 

[Nelly]

I'd definitely be interested in 1 through 4, but I have a question. Would these ONLY work with the FS6 sliders, or could other ones be used with them also?

Thanks Mate,

Keep us posted.

Nelly

 

[killernoodle]

Did a little work fabbing up a single rail out of some steel I had lying around. Don't look at the welds, I haven't yet got my machine dialed in the way I like it. Still though, it is a good way to show the clearances and the shape of the part, even if it is not round tubing. I'll probably add a couple more pieces and use it at a jig to do welding of production parts so I don't have to weld everything to my bike. Also, please excuse the cell phone pics

 

[Nelly]

Did a little work fabbing up a single rail out of some steel I had lying around. Don't look at the welds, I haven't yet got my machine dialed in the way I like it. Still though, it is a good way to show the clearances and the shape of the part, even if it is not round tubing. I'll probably add a couple more pieces and use it at a jig to do welding of production parts so I don't have to weld everything to my bike. Also, please excuse the cell phone pics

Just wanted to ask a "numb" question.
Will a cage take all the force of a fall/slide. How is all the energy dissipated? Will it possibly put more stress on the frame than stock bungs?
As a complete ignoramace If you have a bung why bother with just a rail? and vis a versa If you have a rail remove the bung. I reckon that most bungs will bend in a slow speed drop. You then need to Tig or Helicoil the frame to replace the bung screw.
I am not trying to be awkward, just asking some questions that I need answering.



Nelly
ps As you can gather I am not an engineer. Cell phone pics do the job thanks. I will also be a full cage customer.

 

[killernoodle]

The problem with current sliders is they rely on the strength from a single 10mm bolt to keep them from bending in a wreck. Stabilizing the slider shaft with a 1" diameter steel tube that is bolted to another location on the frame will prett much nullify the effects of these forces. Once more, attaching the bung to multiple locations on the frame gives it even more support. Essentially, you are transferring the impact forces from a single point to many more points on the frame. I would argue that it actually dissipates the impact forces by decentralizing it and thus should be less stressful to the frame than just a single frame slider.

I guess it would be possible to simply run without the bung, but there is the possibility that the steel cage could cause the bike to flip by digging into pavement instead of sliding on top of it. I'm not sure if this is the case, but thats the main reason why aluminum sliders are generally frowned upon. That and the fact that the coefficient of friction between them and the pavement is much greater than plastic, thus putting additional load on the 10mm bolt. Also, its nice to just have a replaceable part to change out in the instance of a crash rather than a rashed up cage.

 

[FZ1inNH]

Did a little work fabbing up a single rail out of some steel I had lying around. Don't look at the welds, I haven't yet got my machine dialed in the way I like it. Still though, it is a good way to show the clearances and the shape of the part, even if it is not round tubing. I'll probably add a couple more pieces and use it at a jig to do welding of production parts so I don't have to weld everything to my bike. Also, please excuse the cell phone pics

I really like your first design posted.

I think you're doing a great service by being an innovator for FZ6 owners. This could be a great business opportunity, especially if you expand to other models that also don't offer these.

I'm keeping a close watch on this project. :thumbup: