GARGOYLES in my 6!!

[warrencycle]

Randy just Pm'ed me re this thread...

It does appear you have more broken parts than what blew up.

As noisy as it is, your not able to narrow down where the clicking is coming from or noticed (when the engine was apart) , no aluminum wear marks on the block?


Just as a side note, something to look for. On my old KLR 250, it was notorious for the left side main crank, roller (pretty large) to fail every 32,000 miles. The first time it went, the cage, that held the actual bearings apart was approx 1/3 GONE.. it made a god aweful noise.

With that said, metal parts of the clutch (and if something blew up previously and left debris) got into any of those bearings, it would also make some serious noise (like yours).

When you have the pan off (or side covers), pay super close attention to all the brearings and literally take a screwdriver and lean some on the shafts checking for ANY PLAY.

A bad gear, I would think, would whine more than your click/tick sound.

In either case, with ALL the debris that got into the engine, to keep from doing this again, I'd probably pull the engine apart and make sure ALL the crap/metal, clutch material is out of there. It doesn't take much to clog up an oil passage and fry a major bearing (which it could be) or engine..

Just as a side note, about 1.5 years ago, my local shop had an R6 in there with a blown up clutch plate(1/4 mile or drag racing). The parts got scattered thru out the engine and literally locked up the engine with debris stuck in-between gears. The shop wanted to do a full tear down, the owner couldn't afford it, they ended up pulling the motor, flip it upside down and manually pulling clutch parts from the engine...

If you could take a look at the video, any input is appreciated. I'm almost positive I found the problem, but many eye are better than two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T38RrGjf-oY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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[FinalImpact]

That's it...

So question; any chance that aluminum transfered there and became one with the steel gear? That was great Filming, good close ups but not the same as being there.

So, it looked like you found a suspect spot. Was it me it did it looked raised? I ask as under HIGH PRESSURE, metal can fuse and become one. Especially steel and aluminum on something coarse like that gear.

So, is there any chance it can be peeled off, picked off, or removed with an emery cloth?? Can you see an actual depression where it displaced one or more of the gears? And what of the basket? How does it look under magnification?

Are there any signs of cracks at the gears edges??

Sorry for all the questions. I'm not there.

 

[warrencycle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvbeaM70J0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This guy has the same sound with his honda. Turns out it was his crankshaft as well.

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[warrencycle]

I stripped the primary driven gear off the old clutch basket out of curiosity. To again rule out the clutch basket. Still the same noise. I can't wrap my head around the crank getting damaged. Its gotta be a bearing or somthing else. I'm gonna clean that gear up and see what happens.

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[TownsendsFJR1300]

You can easliy see the difference in spacing between the gears (excellent video BTW) in different spots as you hit the starter.

Agreed, when the clutch let loose, a piece got into those gears and something had to move/bend. I have removed succesfully (years ago on a two stroke yammy YZ 125 crank), different metals fused together (when the lower crank bearing let loose in an AMA MX race).

In your case, it doesn't really matter, it bent something. BTW, the side to side play of the conecting rod looks normal

While checking those clearances, IMO, I would remove the center plug in the cam chain cover and turn the engine by hand with a socket.

****As much as the gears move back and forth, for a quick rough check (W/O a dial indicator), bolting a bent coat hanger to the block, bend the other end adjacent to the gears(as close as possible, just touching the gear, you should be able to see one gear or the other moving back and forth (elipitcally)**.. Check the same way on the end of the transmission shaft for any wobble


I'f you could remove the debris suceessfully, I'd also check the clutch shafts as thier considerably smaller(diameter) than the crankshaft and more likely to bend than the crankshaft (that energy from the debris, very possibly) transferred from the crank and clutch basket, to the MAIN CLUTCH SHAFT-potentially bending it.

Thus, the clutch basket is moving back and forth tightening and loosening the clearances which you found..

The main transmission shaft would be easier to replace than the crank and likely, much cheaper.

BTW, now that you've found where the issue is, I would NOT RUN THAT ENGINE ANYMORE AND POTENTIALLY DAMAGE crank bearings, etc with that extra side load its not designed to take, just use a socket at the ignition trigger bolt (rt side).

A dial indicator is your friend at this point and will indicate whats bent..

BTW, great job hunting and finding what you have so far, your almost at the exact issue.

Good luck

 

[warrencycle]

You can easliy see the difference in spacing between the gears (excellent video BTW) in different spots as you hit the starter.

Agreed, when the clutch let loose, a piece got into those gears and something had to move/bend. I have removed succesfully (years ago on a two stroke yammy YZ 125 crank), different metals fused together (when the lower crank bearing let loose in an AMA MX race).

In your case, it doesn't really matter, it bent something. BTW, the side to side play of the conecting rod looks normal

While checking those clearances, IMO, I would remove the center plug in the cam chain cover and turn the engine by hand with a socket.

****As much as the gears move back and forth, for a quick rough check (W/O a dial indicator), bolting a bent coat hanger to the block, bend the other end adjacent to the gears(as close as possible, just touching the gear, you should be able to see one gear or the other moving back and forth (elipitcally)**.. Check the same way on the end of the transmission shaft for any wobble


I'f you could remove the debris suceessfully, I'd also check the clutch shafts as thier considerably smaller(diameter) than the crankshaft and more likely to bend than the crankshaft (that energy from the debris, very possibly) transferred from the crank and clutch basket, to the MAIN CLUTCH SHAFT-potentially bending it.

Thus, the clutch basket is moving back and forth tightening and loosening the clearances which you found..

The main transmission shaft would be easier to replace than the crank and likely, much cheaper.

BTW, now that you've found where the issue is, I would NOT RUN THAT ENGINE ANYMORE AND POTENTIALLY DAMAGE crank bearings, etc with that extra side load its not designed to take, just use a socket at the ignition trigger bolt (rt side).

A dial indicator is your friend at this point and will indicate whats bent..

BTW, great job hunting and finding what you have so far, your almost at the exact issue.

Good luck

Excellent information. I agree about the crank. I was breaking it down in my mind all night and I was thinking there's no way in hell a piece of aluminum is goin to bend a crank. So back to what finalimpact was sayin earlier in the feed with the dial. Well this is good news, because within 8 pages we've collectively narrowed it done. Not that I doubted anyone, I just needed hard evidence before I just went tearin through the engine willy nilly. I think what I'm goin to do, at this point, is find a used engine and swap it out completely. Then, rebuild this one overtime. I've found a few engines from 10k to 15k miles on them, from $450 to $700 on C-List. That way I can take my time and have back up engine in the future.

Thank you all!

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[TownsendsFJR1300]

You seem to be very mechanically inclined. Once you find the exact issue, with the help of the other compleate tear down post(Randy linked, FI), I'd put money you could fix it before the new engine got here.

And you already know, your current engine, with the new part(s) is fine, no guessing.. Just a thought.

Of course your pulling the engine one way or the other.

I'd do the coat hanger check just for S&G's. It should be pretty obvious what's out of round. Its free, doesn't cost anything, just some time...

Not knowing alone, would drive me nuts.. :thumbup:

Please keep us updated!

 

[FinalImpact]

Dude, that sucks!
I was trying to figure out why the sound changed so much, it appears two major ingredients are left.

A) it bent the shaft on the trans and the sound is the contact patch chaining.

B) it deformed the gear on the crank.

Your next step is to place a dial indicator either on the clutch basket or the strip the clutch and go straight to the shaft.

Samples...
View attachment 51718 View attachment 51719

Back here at 51 is the the suggestion to use a DI or coat hanger what ever you have on the transmission input shaft and the actual clutch basket.

FSM has 0.02 mm (0.0008 in) as checked in the center using V blocks at the bearings. So, no number for the shafts end past the bearing but any run-out will be transfered to the clutch assembly/driven gear. Its simply good to know how much if any it has.
I have a mag base dial indicator but I'd just rent one for a day or hit a pawn shop. No need for mag base as the block won't hold it. A scrap of metal and some bolts to secure it, then bend the metal into place... Home run.

 

[warrencycle]

Back here at 51 is the the suggestion to use a DI or coat hanger what ever you have on the transmission input shaft and the actual clutch basket.

FSM has 0.02 mm (0.0008 in) as checked in the center using V blocks at the bearings. So, no number for the shafts end past the bearing but any run-out will be transfered to the clutch assembly/driven gear. Its simply good to know how much if any it has.
I have a mag base dial indicator but I'd just rent one for a day or hit a pawn shop. No need for mag base as the block won't hold it. A scrap of metal and some bolts to secure it, then bend the metal into place... Home run.

Yup! That's the one. Lol thanks. Looks like ill need to reference this when start the tear down.

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[FinalImpact]

Yup! That's the one. Lol thanks. Looks like ill need to reference this when start the tear down.

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This can easily be done on the bike. Same with the crank gear. Just take the plugs out.
Again, take sharp new exacto blade and see if anything comes off the crank. Did you ever ride it after the clutch gear was replaced to hear it under load?

 

[warrencycle]

This can easily be done on the bike. Same with the crank gear. Just take the plugs out.
Again, take sharp new exacto blade and see if anything comes off the crank. Did you ever ride it after the clutch gear was replaced to hear it under load?

Yea I rode it with the new gear. Not far though. I also put the back tire up on the bulldog and then pressed on the back brake to simulate resistance as well. Tomorrow or monday ill run to the harbor freight and get a dial. I did do some minor scraping with a small screw driver and got a few flakes, but nothing significant. I didn't touch the bike today. I was kinda depressed about yesterdays findings.
I've got my harley still, which I love, but I grew fond of the light and nimble FZ in the corners. Its easier and more effective to teach on as well.
Anyhow, ill post my findings here in a day or two.


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[TownsendsFJR1300]

This can easily be done on the bike. Same with the crank gear. Just take the plugs out.

+1 on the above.

You can also do the same for the clutch shafts as well. Actually, it'd be very accurate as the shafts are resting on the bearings.

For the crankshaft, spin it slowly with the nut that holds the ignition rotor on. Your probably best checking it towards the very outer end of the crank where run out (if any) would be the worst..

I would also, with the dial indicator, pull up, in the opposite direction (for both shafts) checking for excessive play (torn up/worn, sloppy bearings)

 

[warrencycle]

I had to order the Dial indicator. I couldn't find one in town. Won't have any answers till the weekend.

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[FinalImpact]

FWIW: You have options...... Wait long enough I bet you find a crank w/ matching bearing numbers! Some as cheap as $40

HOPEFULLY IT DOESN'T COME to this.... but the last video sure sounds like its on the crank. Did you ever look it over real close?

5SL-11411-00-00 CRANKSHAFT

2003 R6 - YZFR6R CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2003 R6 - YZFR6RC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2003 R6 - YZFR6SR CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2003 R6 - YZFR6SRC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2004 FZ6 - FZ600SS CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2004 FZ6 - FZ600SSC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2004 YZF-R6 - YZFR6S CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2004 YZF-R6 - YZFR6SC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2004 YZF-R6 - YZFR6SCS CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2004 YZF-R6 - YZFR6SS CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2005 FZ6 - FZ6ST CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2005 FZ6 - FZ6STC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2005 YZF-R6 - YZFR6T CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2005 YZF-R6 - YZFR6TC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2005 YZS6T CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2006 FZ-6 - FZS6V CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2006 FZ-6 - FZS6VC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2006 R6S - YZFR6SV CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2006 R6S - YZFR6SVC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2007 FZ6 - FZS6W CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2007 FZ6 - FZS6WC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2007 R6S - YZFR6SW CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2007 R6S CA - YZFR6SWC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 FZ6 (BLACK METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - FZS6XBC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 FZ6 (BLACK METALLIC X) - FZS6XB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 FZ6 (DARK PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC U) (CA ED.) - FZS6XLC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 FZ6 (DARK PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC U) - FZS6XL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XCB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 FZ6 - FZS6XCL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 R6S - YZFR6SXB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 R6S - YZFR6SXCB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 R6S - YZFR6SXCL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 R6S - YZFR6SXL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 R6S CA - YZFR6SXBC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2008 R6S CA - YZFR6SXLC CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 FZ6 (BLACK METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - FZS6YB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 FZ6 (DARK PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - FZS6YL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 FZ6 (DARK PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC X) - FZS6YL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 FZ6 (DEEP PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC X) - FZS6YL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 YZFR6S (BLACK METALLIC X) (CA ED.) - YZFR6SYCB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 YZFR6S (BLACK METALLIC X) - YZFR6SYB CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 YZFR6S (DEEP PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC C) (CA ED.) - YZFR6SYCL CRANKSHAFT PISTON
2009 YZFR6S (DEEP PURPLISH BLUE METALLIC C) - YZFR6SYL CRANKSHAFT PISTON

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

If I were a bettin, I'd put it on a bent transmission shaft.

Its not as heavy as the crank and it has the clutch basket as leverage to bend it..

We'll know soon enough...

 

[FinalImpact]

If I were a bettin, I'd put it on a bent transmission shaft.

Its not as heavy as the crank and it has the clutch basket as leverage to bend it..

We'll know soon enough...

I don't disagree hence my suggestion to apply a dial indicator to it about 20 posts back. Again, listen the two videos. Before and after basket change. Before it has the two damaged gears meshing with each other. Now you hear the damage of just one gear and its at crank speed. A Key indicator of where the damage lies.

It is good to see the R6 crank is the SAME PN as those are wrecked at a much higher rate!

 

[warrencycle]

If I were a bettin, I'd put it on a bent transmission shaft.

Its not as heavy as the crank and it has the clutch basket as leverage to bend it..

We'll know soon enough...

I don't disagree hence my suggestion to apply a dial indicator to it about 20 posts back. Again, listen the two videos. Before and after basket change. Before it has the two damaged gears meshing with each other. Now you hear the damage of just one gear and its at crank speed. A Key indicator of where the damage lies.

It is good to see the R6 crank is the SAME PN as those are wrecked at a much higher rate!

Ok, test the trans input shaft. Seems normal. Sorry for wait. Snow storm in NC. Smh. Everyone lost their mind. (I'm from Wisconsin).

View attachment 51933

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[warrencycle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m46ApY-C-BM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here's the video. I've never done this so maybe I jacked it up but regardless the needle doesn't budge.

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[FinalImpact]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m46ApY-C-BM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here's the video. I've never done this so maybe I jacked it up but regardless the needle doesn't budge.

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Just an observation, although the needle never moved, it would best if the dial's plunger were at 90ᴼ angle to the shaft (like the crankshaft in the drawing), as it will have better resolution.

In this case setting the plunger on a spline, get a reading, lifting it over the splines while shaft is rotated 90ᴼ . So zero it, or simply keep the number (keep number in mind), lift needle, rotate 90ᴼ review difference if any and repeat for 360ᴼ and the last reading should be the same as the first after completing 360ᴼ.

In light of the fact that the input shaft appears OK, when the crank gear is examined (with plugs out, can you find and see where the disk went through it? One would think, the extreme pressure would smash/collapse, depress, the gears surface as it tried to bend it out of the way.
IF HOWEVER IT SIMPLY TRANSFERED MATERIAL, THAT MATERIAL CAN BE REMOVED!!! That's what you need to find out.

You took great pictures and video and it looks like its raised as the aluminum bonded to the steel. But I'm not there. If this is the case, you should be able to file it away. JM2C....

 

[warrencycle]

Just an observation, although the needle never moved, it would best if the dial's plunger were at 90ᴼ angle to the shaft (like the crankshaft in the drawing), as it will have better resolution.

In this case setting the plunger on a spline, get a reading, lifting it over the splines while shaft is rotated 90ᴼ . So zero it, or simply keep the number (keep number in mind), lift needle, rotate 90ᴼ review difference if any and repeat for 360ᴼ and the last reading should be the same as the first after completing 360ᴼ.

In light of the fact that the input shaft appears OK, when the crank gear is examined (with plugs out, can you find and see where the disk went through it? One would think, the extreme pressure would smash/collapse, depress, the gears surface as it tried to bend it out of the way.
IF HOWEVER IT SIMPLY TRANSFERED MATERIAL, THAT MATERIAL CAN BE REMOVED!!! That's what you need to find out.

You took great pictures and video and it looks like its raised as the aluminum bonded to the steel. But I'm not there. If this is the case, you should be able to file it away. JM2C....

I've begun to run a wire brush through the teeth of the crank driven gear. I will post a picture. Hold one.

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