what octane do you use?

[hazy]

I am running RON 98Just trying to give the best treatment for my bike.

 

[Motogiro]

I run 87 and always have

Can someone teach me how to notice/identify when there is pinging/knocking??? I've been hearing about it since I was a kid but can't say I've ever actually witnessed it.

Generally you'll hear a pinging noise especially during load at acceleration. That's if your engine can't adjust on the fly. The engine will also loose power because the fuel burn becomes inefficient because it's occurring before the end of the compression stroke. That ping is the valves being slammed shut from the predetonation. You've probably heard this ping on a car when it overheats. When the head on the engine gets really hot it helps the fuel detonate before the compression stroke is finished. Essentially it's behaving like a diesel because the fuel is detonating from heat and compression before the spark plug is igniting the fuel. Today's engines for the most part don't do it very often because of reduced compression ratios, advancements in fuel injection and computers with sensors etc.
Our bikes don't run an optimum timing setting for performance. Unless of course you modify it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing because it improves the emissions and also allows us to use degraded fuels. Here's what I mean by degraded. When they first came out with unleaded fuels the cars and bikes pinged when they used it. Then the oil humpanies pulled a fast one. They came out with a new super unleaded. In fact what they did was come out with a lesser octane level unleaded and put the regular unleaded sign on that. The existing regular unleaded became Super Unleaded. Vehicles that were higher compression had to be de-tuned or you had to find higher octane fuel. Leaded fuels were still available at that time and those of us that had performance engines could still get higher octane leaded fuels. Then cars came out with a way to help solve the damage that would occur to engines because of predet. It was called a knock sensor. When the computer was getting a signal from the sensor it would retard the timing to help get around this condition. Now compression ratios, computers, sensors and programming is so different that the actual knock sensor has probably been eliminated but I would still imagine there is provision for a knock condition to be dealt with when it might occur. This might be in the O2 code routine in the computer. Try to remember these computers are processing and executing operations at an incredible rate. So maybe knock sensing is done this way: Hi! I'm your O2 sensor. Wow! Why am I sensing this number? It's the data for higher hydrocarbon burn from an engine that is predetonating! Retard! retard the timing! Hey I'm a knock sensor! Yay! Yay!

There are a lot of articles on all this stuff. I read one article where they were showing that an engine tuned to it's capability and not emission standards actually produced less emissions because it used fuel more efficiently, there by used less fuel creating a better carbon footprint. They added that testing showed that engines that complied to emission standard were not as clean as they should be under other common conditions.

One thing to also remember is we all use our bikes in different conditions. I ride in hot weather with low humidity, average altitudes from sea level and push up to 5-6 thousand feet. So for me, even if the motor can run 87 I like it to have an option with the conditions that may arise. Also it's been tuned and can accommodate a few more available horses than stock.

Here's a little info on what we're discussing. Motorcycle Performance Charts - Gasoline - How Much Octane?

Have fun!

Cliff

 

[mtakacs]

I had always put in premium in the past. I just bought an 05 FZ6 and the manual says regular is ok. Just wanted to get an idea of what you all do, and the benefits if any. Thanks for your input.

Here in Hungary the minimum is 95. I use this.

 

[Atron]

The one on the left

:justkidding: I always use 87 and have never had an issue after 13600 miles.

do your fuels have lead?

 

[larryinpa]

No lead here for decades...

 

[FZ1inNH]

The dealer and manual say 87 so that is all I run. No sense in paying extra for no added benefit, right?

 

[Wildcard]

If you look at the prices on the pump + the ocatne rating I would assume it is at a track.

 

[wolfc70]

That ping is the valves being slammed shut from the predetonation.

The pinging noise heard is actually the air/fuel mixture exploding in the cylinder. Normal combustion for spark ignited engines is a gradual burn. The expansion of the burning fuel is what moves the piston down. The typical "diesel clatter" is the sound of exploding fuel, as compression ignition engines work on a similar, but different principal.

This pinging is also known as, spark knock, preignition, detonation, and many others. The danger from preignition is that it is uncontrolled time wise. It is igniting before the normal timed ignition. This is a great way to burn holes in the piston or melt various parts of the head.

Valves can not close any faster than the valve springs close them. If the cam is holding the valve open, the valve can not close. Ask anyone who has had a broken timing belt on an interference engine. Bent valves are not so pretty.

 

[urbanj]

The dealer and manual say 87 so that is all I run. No sense in paying extra for no added benefit, right?

There is zero added benefit. It actually robs you of power. I said it above. There is less energy in higher octane fuels.

The pinging is the sound when the two flame fronts meet. Preignition is the cause and detonation is the result. When the fuel preignites it doesnt have a nice slow controlled burn like it should. It's more of an explosion. when the explosion from one side of the cylinder collides with the flame from the spark they crash and make that sound. Detonation is bad because it creates huge spikes in combustion pressures that destroy the engine internally. These huge pressures happen when the piston is still on its way up. Severe detonation can not only bust up pistons but bend rods.

This is why timing advances as rpm goes up. the fuel has a specific burn rate and you want all the energy to act on the crank. as piston speeds speed up, if you were to run the same timing as at slower speeds by the time the fuel finishes burning the piston will be way past TDC and have lost most of its mechanical leverage on the crank. thus reducing power output. when you advance it too much the cylinder pressures rise to fast and thus contribute to detonation.

If our engines are designed for 87 it means that the fuel is suitable and will not preignite and that it will make the most power. with everything else the same the higher octane will burn slower and there is a chance, because of ignition timing, that you wont get the full effects of combustion acting down on the crank.

 

[Atron]

100 RON Octane x 0.95 = 95 AKI Octane (US measure)

Is what i use

 

[CHEMIKER]

do your fuels have lead?

No leaded fuel at gas stations any more. They phased that out years ago. I took this picture at a race track, where the gas is apparently leaded.

 

[chimneydoc]

Always the good stuff.


Doc

 

[gt89stang393]

There is zero added benefit. It actually robs you of power. I said it above. There is less energy in higher octane fuels.

The pinging is the sound when the two flame fronts meet. Preignition is the cause and detonation is the result. When the fuel preignites it doesnt have a nice slow controlled burn like it should. It's more of an explosion. when the explosion from one side of the cylinder collides with the flame from the spark they crash and make that sound. Detonation is bad because it creates huge spikes in combustion pressures that destroy the engine internally. These huge pressures happen when the piston is still on its way up. Severe detonation can not only bust up pistons but bend rods.

This is why timing advances as rpm goes up. the fuel has a specific burn rate and you want all the energy to act on the crank. as piston speeds speed up, if you were to run the same timing as at slower speeds by the time the fuel finishes burning the piston will be way past TDC and have lost most of its mechanical leverage on the crank. thus reducing power output. when you advance it too much the cylinder pressures rise to fast and thus contribute to detonation.

If our engines are designed for 87 it means that the fuel is suitable and will not preignite and that it will make the most power. with everything else the same the higher octane will burn slower and there is a chance, because of ignition timing, that you wont get the full effects of combustion acting down on the crank.

Has anyone tried to prove this, on the dyno that running 91, 92, or 93 octane actually drops power compared to 87 octane in these engines? Has anyone ever looked at the timing tables for the FZ6? In order to run 87 octane in a high compression engine such as these engines, the timing in certain RPM ranges and throttle positions will be heavily retarded. Now, low throttle and steady rpm cruising the timing will be elevated. That is how you get high MPG, timing is through the roof while cruising in high gear to burn all possible fuel as efficiently as possible.

When I bought my motorcycle I asked the owner of the dealer what fuel he suggested and he said "run premium fuel, it won't hurt anything and for a few cents difference why run less?" Does anyone run 87 with the PCIII, exhaust and filter upgrades? I know with the PCIII, exhaust, BMC filter, and 89 Octane my bike didn't have power above 10,000rpm at all. It didn't seem to want to rev.

 

[dako81]

I run regular unless it is going to be really hot outside. Then I will run some premium. I think it runs a little better when it is really hot outside and is running premium. That's what I feel at least. I'd say, tho 90% of the time is regular.

 

[urbanj]

Has anyone tried to prove this, on the dyno that running 91, 92, or 93 octane actually drops power compared to 87 octane in these engines? Has anyone ever looked at the timing tables for the FZ6? In order to run 87 octane in a high compression engine such as these engines, the timing in certain RPM ranges and throttle positions will be heavily retarded. Now, low throttle and steady rpm cruising the timing will be elevated. That is how you get high MPG, timing is through the roof while cruising in high gear to burn all possible fuel as efficiently as possible.

When I bought my motorcycle I asked the owner of the dealer what fuel he suggested and he said "run premium fuel, it won't hurt anything and for a few cents difference why run less?" Does anyone run 87 with the PCIII, exhaust and filter upgrades? I know with the PCIII, exhaust, BMC filter, and 89 Octane my bike didn't have power above 10,000rpm at all. It didn't seem to want to rev.

No don't think so. But that's the theory. I don't really have the number off the top of my head, maybe someone here knows, but you want the fuel to complete it's burn a certain number of degrees ATDC. I'm gonna say 15-20. I made up those numbers but if all being equal and with a compression ratio and ignition timing that doesn't change, there is no advantage of using a fuel that resists detonation any more than is needed.

If the engine is already set up optimally for 87 then higher octane will make no difference. Once modded, everything changes, and you should use the fuel that curbs preignition. The problem with our bikes is you can't alter timing. So fuel adjustments with the power commander is all we get. If we lean it out to get more power there may be a risk of detonation on 87 octane.

Now maybe yamaha has engineered it so 87 can be used just fine to appease the target market and it WILL have an advantage to using higher octane. You'd never know without testing it and even then I bet it's minimal.

 

[npshultz]

Regular because yamaha spent a lot of money for an engineer to decide what would work best in their engine.

 

[Motogiro]

Regular because yamaha spent a lot of money for an engineer to decide what would work best in their engine.

I agree but the difference is that not all of us are running stock or the same altitude, humidity and temperatures.

 

[npshultz]

You are definitly correct about everyones situation being differant. I guess as long as you are not having issues with regular, why change? If you think it is running smoother at a higher octane, go for it.

 

[boostedtimmy]

On a stock bike, premium is pretty much a waste. Theres can be a very small increase in MPG using premium gas but any big change is more than likely due to some other factor. Even if you are getting slightly better mileage, does it warrant the extra price? I highly doubt it.

The only time I would ever put anything more than 87 into my bike is if I had a PCIII (Likely to be a more aggressive tune, could cause detonation if it was tuned on/for higher octane gas), or on an extremely hot day. Anything else is just a waste when the engine is tuned from the factory for 86....although I can't comment on the premium gas being better for storage that I'm not sure of.

 

[wolfc70]

Has anyone tried to prove this, on the dyno that running 91, 92, or 93 octane actually drops power compared to 87 octane in these engines? Has anyone ever looked at the timing tables for the FZ6? In order to run 87 octane in a high compression engine such as these engines, the timing in certain RPM ranges and throttle positions will be heavily retarded. Now, low throttle and steady rpm cruising the timing will be elevated. That is how you get high MPG, timing is through the roof while cruising in high gear to burn all possible fuel as efficiently as possible.

When I bought my motorcycle I asked the owner of the dealer what fuel he suggested and he said "run premium fuel, it won't hurt anything and for a few cents difference why run less?" Does anyone run 87 with the PCIII, exhaust and filter upgrades? I know with the PCIII, exhaust, BMC filter, and 89 Octane my bike didn't have power above 10,000rpm at all. It didn't seem to want to rev.

On modern car engines, with advanced knock sensors and the computers full control of valve timing and ignition timing, they can adjust for more power with a higher octane fuel by advancing the valve/ignition timing. They can also get much better fuel mileage under certain conditions running on a premium grade of gas. The higher the octane, the slower the fuel burns, it has more resistance to preignition. A modern car engine will most likely run advanced enough to run just on the cusp of preignition, as a more advanced ignition program improves efficiency.

A engine with no knock sensors and a fixed ignition map will not benefit from a higher octane rating. The computer can not adjust to take advantage of a more advanced ignition program. Unless you are pinging under load, premium has no performance benefits.

However, premium fuel has more detergents to help keep valves and the combustion chamber free from deposits.

Regular and midgrade usually have enough detergents to keep deposits from forming. Premium fuels have enough detergents to actually clean deposits from your engine. At least that is what I was told by the two gas wholesalers I called a few years ago.

Now I am not saying not to run premium, it is your money, and it will not do a ounce of harm. And running 87 is absolutely fine too.

Here is a link to another octane thread. I did a basic octane explanation. http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-...getting-mix-lower-octane-fuel.html#post145829