Promised transparency? Nope.

[Cuba]

Obama is refusing to provide the transparency promised us during the campaign and is instead sticking to the Bush policy of not releasing the White House guest list. He does not want us to know who he is meeting with, or how often. He doesn't want us to know who is influencing policy that effects us all. Even though the liberals (including Obama) attacked Bush for this very policy. Even though two federal judges ordered the list to be released. Change? Nope.

 

[dark_isz]

I, personally, never felt the need to know every single person who visited President Bush in the White House. I never criticized him for keeping his guest lists secret. Therefore, I will not criticize President Obama for it, either.

I do believe that President Obama's Administration has been, and will continue to be, more transparent than previous administrations. All of his policies are plainly displayed on the internet for anyone to view. He is the first president to do this, and I applaud the change he is bringing. However, I am a realist, so I don't expect complete transparency into the inner workings of the federal government.

 

[Cuba]

However, I am a realist, so I don't expect complete transparency into the inner workings of the federal government.

Nor do I, but making the guest list public is not the same as publishing the minutes. I also think that since two federal judges oredered it, that it is also the law.

As a realist, what do you expect of Obama when it comes to following through on what he promises? Where do you draw the line?

Here is MSNBC's take on it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31373407/ns/politics-white_house/

Some quotes:

"We are deeply disappointed," said CREW attorney Anne L. Weismann, "that the Obama administration is following the same anti-transparency policy as the Bush administration when it comes to White House visitor records. Refusing to let the public know who visits the White House is not the action of a pro-transparency, pro-accountability administration."

And:

These same arguments, made by the Bush administration, were rejected twice by a federal judge. The visitor logs are created by the Secret Service and maintained by the Secret Service, U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth ruled in 2007 and again this January. CREW had requested records of visits to the Bush White House, as well as the residence of Vice President Dick Cheney, by leaders of Religious Right organizations.

 

[dark_isz]

Nor do I, but making the guest list public is not the same as publishing the minutes. I also think that since two federal judges oredered it, that it is also the law.

The rulings are still under appeal, not that I have any vested interest in them. As I have already stated my opinion on the public's access to the White House guest list.

As a realist, what do you expect of Obama when it comes to following through on what he promises? Where do you draw the line?

President Obama is a politician. As with all politicians, he will make promises in the campaing that he cannot keep. No president in history has ever followed through on all of their campaign promises. Anyone who has followed politics for any length of time realizes this.

Do you agree or disagree that President Obama's White House is more transparent that Presiden Bush's?

 

[Cuba]

The rulings are still under appeal, not that I have any vested interest in them. As I have already stated my opinion on the public's access to the White House guest list.



President Obama is a politician. As with all politicians, he will make promises in the campaing that he cannot keep. No president in history has ever followed through on all of their campaign promises. Anyone who has followed politics for any length of time realizes this.

Do you agree or disagree that President Obama's White House is more transparent that Presiden Bush's?

So in other words you have zero expectation that Obama will follow through with any of his promises (glad we agree on that one), and you feel okay with that? Again with the argument that whatever Bush did (and Obama and the left campaigned so strongly against) is now totally acceptable as long as it's Obama doing it. Insanity. So you are happy that we have a president that has zero accountability, can lie to your face and deliver the same politically motivated decisions he claims to be above. Remember his catch phrase "postpartisan"- laughable. You actually hold him to a LOWER standard than Bush and expect the results to be good?

I disagree, so far they have done nothing but provide very limited information on a website. Their tracking of stimulus dollars are a joke, they are continuing a number of Bush policies including the guest list issue that are very non transparent, he gave no specific reason for firing a very effective and long serving IG that happens to be investigating his friend, refused to allow an investigation into Pelosi's claims about the CIA, he in fact cannot and will not make a single comment that is not scripted and teleprompted on any issue. No "straight talk" here.

 

[dark_isz]

So in other words you have zero expectation that Obama will follow through with any of his promises (glad we agree on that one), and you feel okay with that?

I never said that. I said it's unreasonable to expect any politician to follow through on all thier campaign promises. Your blatent attempt to put words in my mouth is why you have so little company in this forum. I am trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and all you can do is resort to unreasonable tactics. I find your behavior appalling.

Again with the argument that whatever Bush did (and Obama and the left campaigned so strongly against) is now totally acceptable as long as it's Obama doing it. Insanity.

Again, you totally misinterpreted what I said. I said: 'I, personally, never felt the need to know every single person who visited President Bush in the White House. I never criticized him for keeping his guest lists secret. Therefore, I will not criticize President Obama for it, either.' Did you ever criticize Bush for keeping his guest list confidential? I imagine not, but here you are, criticizing President Obama for the same thing Bush did. Not only is that insane, but it's hypocricy. And you are too blinded by your hatred to see how irrational your logic is.

So you are happy that we have a president that has zero accountability, can lie to your face and deliver the same politically motivated decisions he claims to be above. Remember his catch phrase "postpartisan"- laughable. You actually hold him to a LOWER standard than Bush and expect the results to be good?

I never said Obama has or should have zero accountablility. I never want my president to lie to the country (like Bush did about the ficticious WMD's in Iraq) At this point, you are just making up lies out of whole cloth. You have annahilated any chance of reasonable discourse. You have tried to put words in my mouth yet again. That is a blatent personal attack. You are obviously too angry at the world to believe that not everyone thinks exactly like you do.

I pity you, Cuba, honestly I do.

I disagree, so far they have done nothing but provide very limited information on a website. Their tracking of stimulus dollars are a joke, they are continuing a number of Bush policies including the guest list issue that are very non transparent, he gave no specific reason for firing a very effective and long serving IG that happens to be investigating his friend, refused to allow an investigation into Pelosi's claims about the CIA, he in fact cannot and will not make a single comment that is not scripted and teleprompted on any issue. No "straight talk" here.

It's still more information that any other administration ever shared on the internet. That, my friend, is Change.

 

[Cuba]

I never said that. I said it's unreasonable to expect any politician to follow through on all thier campaign promises. Your blatent attempt to put words in my mouth is why you have so little company in this forum. I am trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and all you can do is resort to unreasonable tactics. I find your behavior appalling. .

I asked repeatedly and you ignored, just what is your standard? HOW MANY BLATANT LIES AND ABANDONED POLICIES FROM THIS PRESIDENT ARE TOO MANY? Taxes, spending, campaign finance reform, big government, government control of private business, "stimulus" that doesn't kick in for 2 years, bipartisanship, mandatory 48 hour reviews of all proposed legislation, transparent and ethical "postpartisan" leadership, I could go on.

Again, you totally misinterpreted what I said. I said: 'I, personally, never felt the need to know every single person who visited President Bush in the White House. I never criticized him for keeping his guest lists secret. Therefore, I will not criticize President Obama for it, either.' Did you ever criticize Bush for keeping his guest list confidential? I imagine not, but here you are, criticizing President Obama for the same thing Bush did. Not only is that insane, but it's hypocricy. And you are too blinded by your hatred to see how irrational your logic is. .

Bush never viciously attacked his predecesor for these policies, nor did he run a campaign attacking them and garnering political points, and then simply continue them. 67% of MSNBC readers agree that this is wrong and he needs to release this information EDIT: it's actually 69% as of this morning, take a look: http://www.newsvine.com/_question/2...-white-house-allow-access-to-its-visitors-log . So does the Freedom of Information Act, and so does the federal judge that found it unlawful, twice, to keep them secret. Yes very insane and irrational indeed :thumbup:

I never said Obama has or should have zero accountablility. I never want my president to lie to the country (like Bush did about the ficticious WMD's in Iraq) At this point, you are just making up lies out of whole cloth. You have annahilated any chance of reasonable discourse. You have tried to put words in my mouth yet again. That is a blatent personal attack. You are obviously too angry at the world to believe that not everyone thinks exactly like you do.

I pity you, Cuba, honestly I do..

Don't pity me, my life is fantastic, I'm doing extremely well. You are just words on a computer screen to me that keep me occupied while running reports, so let's not get too personal okay? So speaking of insane and irrational logic, what you are saying above is what, exactly? Bush did it too? Really? So I guess I need to ask this for the fifth time, what is the level of accountability for Obama? You have sidestepped this as all other have, instead pointing at Bush and implying that Obama will not be held accountable because you feel that Bush wasn't. So following your logic we will never have a president held accountable to the law, the constitution, or his own words, because the previous one wasn't. In other words, there will never be change. You want it both ways, but you can't have it. Integrity comes at a cost that Obama clearly is not willing to pay and you are not willing to accept.

It's still more information that any other administration ever shared on the internet. That, my friend, is Change.

Hahaha that is hilarious! I didn't realize that sharing very limited information surrounded by propaganda on the INTERNET was what he was talking about! So as long as he posts it to his blog it's somehow more transparent than actually saying it, in public, without a script and a teleprompter, like every other president in history has done.

I'd like to hear, asking this for the sixth time now, what are your expectations for this president. Where is his level of accountability? What would make you speak out against him? What rights can he take away, what taxes can he impose, what level of economic collapse can he cause that would anger you? What could he do that would cause you serious concern? Where is the line he can't cross, or isn't there one? Honestly, where is the line?

 

[Sawblade]

You know how you can tell if a politician is lying? His mouth is open.



























IT STILL WORKS!!!

 

[Wavex]

It puzzles me that anyone would think such political threads are interesting, useful, and informative... like all other political threads in here, this one turned into verbal diarrhea between 2 guys that disagree and know they will never agree.

WTF is the point to have that in a motorcycle forum again?

Yes, I will keep giving my opinion as long as I see provocative thread titles in my "New Posts" list.

 

[dark_isz]

I asked repeatedly and you ignored, just what is your standard? HOW MANY BLATANT LIES AND ABANDONED POLICIES FROM THIS PRESIDENT ARE TOO MANY? Taxes, spending, campaign finance reform, big government, government control of private business, "stimulus" that doesn't kick in for 2 years, bipartisanship, mandatory 48 hour reviews of all proposed legislation, transparent and ethical "postpartisan" leadership, I could go on.

This is the same thing you say in every thread. I don't set unreasonable expectations for anyone, so I'm not going to lay out a set of "requirements" that President Obama must meet for him to get my approval. I understand that the reality we live in is not defined in black and white terms. Everything is mutable, everything changes. Living by, or expecting anyone else to live by, a static set of rules that never changes no matter what is not the way I choose to see the world. I am not naive. I know all politicians make promises on the campaign trail that they cannot deliver. I also realize that a President's opinion of how to handle an event may change as more information about that event becomes available. I don't see anything wrong with that. I actually admire anyone with the capacity to revisit thier previous decisions as more information comes to light.

But, since it is such a big part of your world view, and hindsight is 20/20, what were your standards for President Bush? Did he live up to those standards? Do you hold him accountable for, say, the lives lost in Iraq because he knowingly allowed the presentation of falsified evidence to support the bogus claim that Saddam had WMD's? What did you do when you found out he allowed those lies about those WMD's to be told? Did you write your Congressmen? Did you call for his impeachment? I did, and if President Obama had done the same thing, I would call for his impeachment, and demand he make face-to-face apologies to every American family that lost loved ones because of his dishonestly.

Before you go off on your "so you're saying Bush did it too" tirade, remember that you are asking me to give you my standards for President Obama, so it's only fair for you to share what your standards were for President Bush. If you decline to answer, I will respect your decesion, and ask that you not make demands of me that you are unwilling to answer for yourself.

Bush never viciously attacked his predecesor for these policies, nor did he run a campaign attacking them and garnering political points, and then simply continue them. 67% of MSNBC readers agree that this is wrong and he needs to release this information. So does the Freedom of Information Act, and so does the federal judge that found it unlawful, twice, to keep them secret. Yes very insane and irrational indeed :thumbup:

As I've said repeatedly, I never attacked Bush for this particular policy, therefore I will not attack Obama for it. How is that difficult to understand? Did you attack Bush for this policy? (I asked this before and you have yet to answer) If you did not, how can you not see the hypocricy of attacking Obama for the same thing? I am holding both Presidents to the same standard on this issue, are you?

As far as Obama holding Bush to a different standard than himself, he is currently holding himself to the same standard Bush did, until the appeals process has been completed. I imagine he is forcing this issue because he wants the appeal process to be completed, thereby setting legal precedent for all Presidents to release all their guest lists. When the appeals process completes, if he still refuses to release the list, I will be upset, and will let him, and my congressmen know it.

Don't pity me, my life is fantastic, I'm doing extremely well. You are just words on a computer screen to me that keep me occupied while running reports, so let's not get too personal okay? So speaking of insane and irrational logic, what you are saying above is what, exactly? Bush did it too? Really? So I guess I need to ask this for the fifth time, what is the level of accountability for Obama? You have sidestepped this as all other have, instead pointing at Bush and implying that Obama will not be held accountable because you feel that Bush wasn't. So following your logic we will never have a president held accountable to the law, the constitution, or his own words, because the previous one wasn't. In other words, there will never be change. You want it both ways, but you can't have it. Integrity comes at a cost that Obama clearly is not willing to pay and you are not willing to accept.

Oh, here comes the "you're saying Bush did it too" nonsense. I knew you would get around to it sooner or later, since it's one of your incredibly limited repitoire of rebuttals. I never said that Obama should be allowed to do anything just because Bush did it. Those are not my words. You are attemting to put words in my mouth, yet again. I am simply referencing Bush because you seem to want to forget about how he repeatedly violated the same standards that you demand Obama be held to. When you do that, it is hypocricy, which is a fancy word for flip-flopping. But, I imagine your denial won't allow you to see the truth. Instead, you will, once again, twist my words to make it sound like I think Obama should be allowed to get away with everything Bush did. You just keep sticking with the exact same irrational arguments, because the rational arguments show how you are a hypocrite. I addressed this demand to "share my standards" at the beginning of this post. The ball is in your court to provide the specific standards you held President Bush to, whether or not he violated your standards, and what you did as a result.

Hahaha that is hilarious! I didn't realize that sharing very limited information surrounded by propaganda on the INTERNET was what he was talking about! So as long as he posts it to his blog it's somehow more transparent than actually saying it, in public, without a script and a teleprompter, like every other president in history has done.

There is much more information on that website than the President's blog. It's also quite easy to navigate, and leads to many other government websites that didn't exist until President Obama issued his Memorandum of Transparency and Open Government. The fact that all you see is "very limited information surrounded by propaganda" reveals that either you didn't look very hard at the site, or that you are in denial that President Obama is actually taking steps to make the government more transparent. This is just the beginning, too. There will be more transparency revealed in the future. For example: (This is from Whitehouse.gov)

Data.gov

The Challenge
Data produced by government agencies are often hard to find or are published in proprietary formats of limited utility. As a result, a wealth of information remains untapped by the ingenuity and creativity of the American people.

The Solution
Data.gov is a citizen-friendly platform that provides access to Federal datasets. With a searchable data catalog, Data.gov helps the public find, access, and download non-sensitive Government data and tools in a variety of formats.

The Benefit
Enterprising Americans will be able to create new web applications that help individuals, communities, and businesses access, sort, visualize, and understand public data in new ways. Data transparency can spur economic, scientific, and educational innovation, as well as civic engagement by making it easier to build applications, conduct analysis, and perform research.

Additional Details
Launched on May 21, 2009, Data.gov already provides access to many Government datasets. Plans are in place to add new datasets and to continually improve the features and tools. Future versions will be even better because the system has the capacity to evolve based on feedback from the American public. We look to you to show us what is possible.

This goes above and beyond "very limited information" as you say. Easy access to vast amounts of federal agencies' data is undeniably different from anything we've seen from previous administrations. It's change, but you are in denial about it.

I'd like to hear, asking this for the sixth time now, what are your expectations for this president. Where is his level of accountability? What would make you speak out against him? What rights can he take away, what taxes can he impose, what level of economic collapse can he cause that would anger you? What could he do that would cause you serious concern? Where is the line he can't cross, or isn't there one? Honestly, where is the line?

Yes, your oft repeated rediculiously unreasonable demand for me to spell out exactly what Obama should and shouldn't be able to do to get my approval. This is the third time you've brought this up in this thread alone. Are you familiar with the term "one-trick pony?"

I have already stated that I don't hold anyone, let alone our President, to a black and white, lockstep, absolute set of unwavering expectations. I believe that because of the billions of variables in every situation, each situation should be evaluated individually and on it's own merits and flaws. This is most easily done with hindsight, as in after a situation has resolved. The matter of whether White House Guest lists should be made public is still under appeal. It is unresolved, and I can't make an accurate decision about how Obama handled it until it is over.

However, President Bush's term is over. This gives us the opportunity to use hindsight to see how he measured up to our individual standards. So, I'll give you the opportunity to exercise your hindsight. What were your expectations for President Bush? Did he live up to them? If he did not, what did you do about it? Be honest, and if you choose not to answer, I will respect your decision. I only ask that you do the same for everyone else here that supports Obama.

 

[Cuba]

Essentially what you are saying is that you are refusing to hold Obama to any set of standards. Here is a counterpoint: In America, we have a set of standards referred to as the Bill of Rights. We have more called The Constitution, and a whole lot more called laws- which are essentially rules that every American must abide by or be punished in some fashion. That would be a good start in terms of accountability. You could say: "I expect Obama to obey the law", as a start. Or "I expect Obama to not engauge in corruption" or "I expect Obama to protect my rights". Are you saying by default that Obama is your supreme dictator and you would grant him the power to do whatever he wants without checks and balances? Where is the line drawn?

Not sure where Bush comes in here, I am not a Bush supporter nor is it hypocritical of me to hold Obama to his own stated standards. I think the term must be confusing to you, so I'll cite an example: it would be hypocritical of me to attack Obama for expanding the war in Afgahnistan and keeping our troops in Iraq indefinitely. This is because I attacked him for his naieve political talking points about promissing to have our troops out in 16 months no matter what. It would also be hypocritical of Obama, but let's not get into that. I never attacked Bush over this policy because Bush never ran a campaign against it, he was not hypocritical, he just didn't had a differing opinion. Obama on the other hand lied, used it for political points, and then flip flopped once it was him that would need to give up that privacy in the name of transparency.

I expected Bush to uphold the law and the principles he ran on, and didn't make out too well. I voted for him in 2000, I didn't in 2004. This was due to his deficit spending, expanding of government and entitlements, etc. I did expect him to make major efforts to protect us from another terrorist attack here in the states, which he seems to have been very successful with, in hindsight. The point being, I held him accountable.

I'm confused as to why your refusal to answer the simplest of questions constitutes my argument being a "one trick pony". I've argued many points and countered many arguments, but since you, like your leader, refuse to set any expectations, you can simply ignore the facts and pretend to be producing results. If your claim is to "save" 3.5 million jobs for instance, and it is impossible for anyone to know or measure how many jobs are saved, then in effect you haven't made any claim at all, there is no measure of your job performance, no way of knowing if you are helping or hurting. It is dishonest. An honest approach would be to say our estimates show it will curb unemployment numbers at a certain percentage, or that it wil CREATE x number of jobs, but that gets him into trouble because then it actually needs to live up to those standards.

The fact that in February he claimed that if we did not award him $787 billion dollars (without being allowed to read what it was for- another promise he inexplicably broke) that we would suffer a "catastrophe" of 8% unemployment by years end, and that we now have 9.4% unemployment AFTER giving him his "stimulus", he was either making these numbers up, or his staff is horribly wrong and apparently incapable of making realistic estimates. In hindsight.

So here let me put it another way: what is your expectation of the results of these policies? Where do you expect the country to be in 3 years? If we are suffering hyperstagflation and double digit unemployment numbers, will you agree that this wasn't the path we should have taken?

 

[Cuba]

It puzzles me that anyone would think such political threads are interesting, useful, and informative... like all other political threads in here, this one turned into verbal diarrhea between 2 guys that disagree and know they will never agree.

WTF is the point to have that in a motorcycle forum again?

Yes, I will keep giving my opinion as long as I see provocative thread titles in my "New Posts" list.

How is your progressive state government working out for you btw? Have your public services ceased operating yet? Are you looking forward to your skyrocketing taxes on the way thanks to your unsustainable entitlement programs that are providing your tax dollars in the form of welfare to millions of illegal aliens? The reason I ask is that I don't want to bail you out, and that Obama stated he doesn't, and won't, either. Let's see if he was telling the truth.

 

[Wavex]

Yeah! It's all because of these bastards illegal aliens! I am visceraly afraid and scared of the current situation here, between my DMV closing 2 more days a month, along with teachers getting 5 more kids per classroom, and the potential of a major earthquake, we're near the end here in California... and I agree with you, it's 100% Obama, his secret white house guests and illegal aliens that are the root cause of everything that's not right with the world today.

 

[dark_isz]

I'm confused

This is something we can agree on! :thumbup:

 

[dark_isz]

So here let me put it another way: what is your expectation of the results of these policies?

Already addressed. It may have been a little difficult for someone such as you to understand, seeing as you admit to being confused. :lol:

Once again:

I don't set unreasonable expectations for anyone, so I'm not going to lay out a set of "requirements" that President Obama must meet for him to get my approval. I understand that the reality we live in is not defined in black and white terms. Everything is mutable, everything changes. Living by, or expecting anyone else to live by, a static set of rules that never changes no matter what is not the way I choose to see the world. I am not naive.

 

[dark_isz]

You could say: "I expect Obama to obey the law", as a start. Or "I expect Obama to not engauge in corruption" or "I expect Obama to protect my rights".

I could say that, but I won't. Because, as I have already stated, I don't expect anyone to live up to unreasonable expectations! Those are blanket statements that have no room to account for unforseeable variables.

For example, "I expect Obama to obey the law", Phsaa! I don't expect anyone to obey every single law. I ride a freaking motorcycle, and I break the speed limit regurlarly. In your incredibly twisted world, I should be held accountable for that?

So, do you ever turn yourself in to the cops for speeding? Where are your standards, Cuba? Or are you just being blatently hypocritical and obtuse?

 

[dark_isz]

The fact that in February he claimed that if we did not award him $787 billion dollars (without being allowed to read what it was for- another promise he inexplicably broke) that we would suffer a "catastrophe" of 8% unemployment by years end, and that we now have 9.4% unemployment AFTER giving him his "stimulus", he was either making these numbers up, or his staff is horribly wrong and apparently incapable of making realistic estimates. In hindsight.

Look, there's only one man that I know who NEVER MADE A MISTAKE.






And he got nailed to a cross for his trouble.

 

[dark_isz]

I expected Bush to uphold the law and the principles he ran on, and didn't make out too well. <snip> The point being, I held him accountable.

How? What exactly, did you do to hold him accountable? Anything? Write a letter to Congress? Make a post here about it? Sign the petition to have him impeached? Anything? At ALL?

I guess your idea of holding Bush accountable for the crimes he perpetrated while serving as our COC was to DO NOTHING! You really should go into politics, if that's your idea of accountability. You'd fit right in in Washington.

What a shining example you are, you must be very proud!

:thumbup:

 

[Cuba]

I could say that, but I won't. Because, as I have already stated, I don't expect anyone to live up to unreasonable expectations! Those are blanket statements that have no room to account for unforseeable variables.

For example, "I expect Obama to obey the law", Phsaa! I don't expect anyone to obey every single law. I ride a freaking motorcycle, and I break the speed limit regurlarly. In your incredibly twisted world, I should be held accountable for that?

So, do you ever turn yourself in to the cops for speeding? Where are your standards, Cuba? Or are you just being blatently hypocritical and obtuse?

You have just stated that you do not think it reasonable for the president to obey the law, protect your rights, or avoid corruption. Thank you for clarifying. This is what I was looking for. There is no line he can cross that you will not defend. You have signed a pledge haven't you?

So back to hypocracy for a moment. You don't expect Obama to have any standards of conduct and find it unreasonable to expect him to uphold the laws and rights granted to us by the consititution and the courts, yet you have attacked Bush for these very things. That is hypocracy.

 

[Cuba]

How? What exactly, did you do to hold him accountable? Anything? Write a letter to Congress? Make a post here about it? Sign the petition to have him impeached? Anything? At ALL?

I guess your idea of holding Bush accountable for the crimes he perpetrated while serving as our COC was to DO NOTHING! You really should go into politics, if that's your idea of accountability. You'd fit right in in Washington.

What a shining example you are, you must be very proud!

:thumbup:

I voted against him, I spoke out against his policies, and I admitted that he was making mistakes and that I disagreed with him. What is so difficult for you to understand?