OK, I give up; help me start my FZ6

[FloppyRunner]

Well this is where I get bit for not tellling you all the COMPLETE story from the beginning; when it first stalled, I DID try and jump start it from the ladyfriend's Mazda Protege. No go. $110 towing charge later, I now wish I'd have been better educated on bump starting instead of trying to do it in first gear....

You're right though, there wasn't any noticeable smoke or anything... I have all the components "clean" now after I sprayed them with chain degreaser (it was either that or "brake-kleen" or whatever that stuff is...). The rebuild kit includes brushes, bearings, and o-rings I believe; I hope it is here by Saturday but probably not... I will take a picture of them after work today although I'm really starting to wish I'd have gotten a picture of all the gunk inside. It was on EVERYTHING: the brushes AND armature.

 

[Explosivpotato]

Oil doesn't conduct. That won't cause your problem. Doesn't mean the starter isn't borked, but oil is not ionic and will not conduct electricity.

I would still say you should have tried the battery first...

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

 

[FinalImpact]

Oil doesn't conduct. That won't cause your problem. Doesn't mean the starter isn't borked, but oil is not ionic and will not conduct electricity.

I would still say you should have tried the battery first...

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Ya, OK - that may be so. But try dumping it into an electric motor and see how happy it is..... (Real world vs science lol)

besides, it was a combo of grease and other impurities, so its not "pure" as in the science application. . .

 

[FinalImpact]

Well this is where I get bit for not tellling you all the COMPLETE story from the beginning; when it first stalled, I DID try and jump start it from the ladyfriend's Mazda Protege. No go. $110 towing charge later, I now wish I'd have been better educated on bump starting instead of trying to do it in first gear....

You're right though, there wasn't any noticeable smoke or anything... I have all the components "clean" now after I sprayed them with chain degreaser (it was either that or "brake-kleen" or whatever that stuff is...). The rebuild kit includes brushes, bearings, and o-rings I believe; I hope it is here by Saturday but probably not... I will take a picture of them after work today although I'm really starting to wish I'd have gotten a picture of all the gunk inside. It was on EVERYTHING: the brushes AND armature.

Personally I'd opt for BRAKE-CLEAN over chain cleaner as the chain cleaner could have oils and other by-products leaving a film on the electrical parts.

So you're saying it made that "click" right from the get go? Or the chic didn't help? lol

OK - that helps solve the mystery but it doesn't rule out a defective starter relay. With jumpers you could jump directly to the starter motor and see if it cranks the engine properly. *** Be careful tho as this bypasses all safety lockout features!!! ***

Also once the starter is reassembled, you could use a car battery and jumpers to test it so keep that in mind before install into the bike. Now because you say it was on everything, that almost leads me to believe the relay is potentially at fault because IF it had ample current to run the starter (delivered by the relay) I bet there would have been smoke.

Do you see a reason why its full of grease and oil? Was there defective seal, O-ring, or something muffed during the starter build?

 

[FloppyRunner]

Ahhh...probably should have known that. I just sort of equated it with water and assumed it would short. Still, the brushes did look pretty worn (I will hopefully actually get to measure them after work) and there was a lot of "gunk" between everything in addition to the oil.

And I may still try the battery, just didn't want to spend the money until I was sure, and after the batteries plus lady expressed such doubt that the battery was bad (which I know isn't always a reliable test) I just figured I poke around a bit first.

 

[FloppyRunner]

Personally I'd opt for BRAKE-CLEAN over chain cleaner as the chain cleaner could have oils and other by-products leaving a film on the electrical parts.

So you're saying it made that "click" right from the get go? Or the chic didn't help? lol

OK - that helps solve the mystery but it doesn't rule out a defective starter relay. With jumpers you could jump directly to the starter motor and see if it cranks the engine properly. *** Be careful tho as this bypasses all safety lockout features!!! ***

Also once the starter is reassembled, you could use a car battery and jumpers to test it so keep that in mind before install into the bike. Now because you say it was on everything, that almost leads me to believe the relay is potentially at fault because IF it had ample current to run the starter (delivered by the relay) I bet there would have been smoke.

Do you see a reason why its full of grease and oil? Was there defective seal, O-ring, or something muffed during the starter build?

I didn't see an OBVIOUS reason for it being full of grease and oil, but I will examine all the seals as closely as I can when I get home. I guess I don't fully understand how the whole thing is supposed to keep oil from getting through with the "pinion" (shaft of the starter).

Once the starter was out I did jump it to the motorcycle battery but it just seemed to "click" again. No rotation or anything...

Will get you guys pictures this afternoon.

 

[FinalImpact]

Ahhh...probably should have known that. I just sort of equated it with water and assumed it would short. Still, the brushes did look pretty worn (I will hopefully actually get to measure them after work) and there was a lot of "gunk" between everything in addition to the oil.

And I may still try the battery, just didn't want to spend the money until I was sure, and after the batteries plus lady expressed such doubt that the battery was bad (which I know isn't always a reliable test) I just figured I poke around a bit first.

OK - things could be adding up here. Contaminants on the brushes and commuter would make make burn/erode/degrade/arc/spark etc so they may very well need replaced if they have been soaked for a while.

At a bare minimum re-clean the brushes and commuter with electrical contact cleaner, lacquer thinner, or brake cleaner before re-assembly. Perhaps read the service manual???

 

[FloppyRunner]

Yeah...ordered the rebuild kit this morning, so I'll replace everything I can.

 

[FloppyRunner]

So the rebuild kit is now expected to be at THEIR warehouse on Wednesday...meaning it'll be a while until it gets to MY place. I cleaned up the components even further and put it back in. I got it to turn just once while connected to the motorcycle battery through jumper cables...but then it didn't. I think it MAY be because I tore one of the brownish pads that I believe just isolate the positive brush...but I'm really not sure.

Anyway...I bumpstarted it since I was all ready to ride anyway and got her out for a quick little ride since it may be a while before I get to take her out whenever I wish...

 

[FinalImpact]

^ Notice the "B" brush carries all the current (+12V) and that its worn the most compared to the A brush. To me that implies all that grease was conducting as a ground path so the A brush wasn't worn as much from current traveling through it.

PS - the commuter needs polished to conduct electricity better.
Either take it to the machine shop and have them chuck it in a lathe and use some light emry cloth or grab some long strands of emry cloth and do some shoe shine action taking equal strokes and rotating 90 degrees (repeat to 360)

 

[DownrangeFuture]

Bah, the bike is so easy to push start, why not just push start it everywhere?

 

[FloppyRunner]

At this point I've considered it... *sigh*

 

[abraxas]

when it first stalled, I DID try and jump start it from the ladyfriend's Mazda Protege.

hmmmmm, was the mazda running?

Did you hook the black to the battery or to the chassis?

Can't comment on the dirt you found, but this seems ... wrong.

 

[DownrangeFuture]

You think he amped the starter out? I would think the ECU and the coils would be more sucseptible to damage than the starter. Or the starter relay. I jump started my Katana all the time, and a lot of the time the car was running. It mostly died from a TPS issue and I got tired of working on it. As far as I know it's still running for the guy that bought it from me.

We know the ignition and charging system is fine. He should still check the starter relay, but from the looks of things, he does need to rebuild it. And electric motors do wear out over time.

And BTW, pure oil is non-conductive. Motor oil has additives and isn't pure oil. Throw in metal contaminates, carbon contaminates, and dirt and you have a very conductive oil. But looking up the computers running submerged in mineral oil is fun and awesome.

 

[FloppyRunner]

hmmmmm, was the mazda running?

Did you hook the black to the battery or to the chassis?

Can't comment on the dirt you found, but this seems ... wrong.

Yes, it was running... Obviously if I could do it over again I wouldn't have the Mazda running but I wasn't sure enough about it and the guys at O'Reilly's (while very friendly and well-intentioned) just didn't know bikes at all.

As for where I hooked the black clamps, we did both. The O'Reilly's guys did the usual hook to the battery thing.

I'm hoping the rebuild kit will (finally) be here on Saturday. I had to cancel the order from one place and order it from another because it KEPT getting pushed back...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

While your waiting, you can hook up a volt meter to the hot wire to the starter and check voltage when the starter button is depressed. You should see 12+ volts there, that should rule out the relay.

Bench testing it and getting on/off results also points towards the starter as well. It is odd how all that crap got in there..

Seems your digging into the starter found the problem.

Also, you may be able to get the armature in a drill press and spin it at an even speed to clean it up with some emory cloth...

Good luck...

 

[FloppyRunner]

I did do that earlier, and voltage was good. That's one thing that prompted me to start dinking with the starter...

The bike is up and running. I ordered a starter rebuild kit on Monday morning and it showed up yesterday (Wednesday). I ordered it through Amazon from a company called “Crank and Charge” I believe. Very speedy delivery, but the two outer seals were too big… I just reused the old ones. I hope this “rebuild” lasts a decent while, because I didn’t actually even replace the bearings inside either just because I didn’t have proper tools. I did replace the seal that goes around the pinion shaft. I actually even misplaced the new outer o-ring because I am a hair-brained ADD disaster, so I even used the old outer o-ring…

Regardless, for now it starts just perfectly and hopefully it doesn’t begin leaking any oil.
One of the guys at work who races 750’s suggested that maybe I overfilled the crankcase with oil, and it made sense. Although I only ended up draining about a quarter quart, I KNOW the oil level is now good.

I’m thinking some oil got in because of a small overfill, then that greatly accelerated the wear of the brushes. The “crud” and dirt and stuff inside was just bits of the worn brushes.