Killed Battery, Unable to bump-start

[Se7enLC]

I took a long trip this past weekend, and my 07 left me stranded. Everything had been running fine, or so I thought. Got back out to the bike after hiking up a short trail, and the battery was completely flat. I didn't leave the keys in the ignition or leave anything on, all my accessories are ignition-switched with a relay (and recently all re-wired, so I know there are no bad connections).

I tried bump-starting for the first time, and I wasn't able to get it to start. I've started manual transmission cars like that with no problem, but the bike just wouldn't go.

Ignition on, clutch held in, rolling bike down hill (tried 1st 2nd and 3rd gears). Dump clutch when at maximum speed, I can see the tachometer jump to 1k or so and the bike slow down, but the engine didn't pick up. and it eventually slowed to a stop.

Ended up having to pull the battery and ride 2-up to get back to where we were staying. Charged the battery, and it's been fine since. I tried to get a new battery right then, but it is VERY hard to find places that sell the FZ6 battery on a weekend (AutoZone and WalMart don't sell sealed batteries at all).

I would call it a fluke, but this has happened to me before where the battery is suddenly dead. The battery is just over 1 year old, stored indoors over the winter.

Any suggestions on the problem or on how to correctly bump-start for the next time I get stuck in this situation?

 

[greg]

loose connection to the battery perhaps, or a problem with the kill/sidestand switch?

if the battery was completely flat then you probably wouldn't have enough juice to prime the fuel pump, that said something is seriously wrong if that happens

 

[jazzpaintball]

I have had the same problem before with an AGM sealed battery from Batteries+. The FZ seems to be a bit harsh on batteries, especially if mods have been done. Have you done a headlight Mod or do you have a battery tender?

For me I found out that my battery tender did not work well with AGM style batteries. I went to a lifetime warranty lead acid battery from Cycle Gear and have not had a problem since.

Most likely when bump starting is that the fuel pump was not able to prime the system. With a completely dead battery even a bump start is hard to pull off.

 

[Motogiro]

Could be you had a bad battery the first time. If something totally dumped the battery there's a good possibility there was not enough current produced on the onset of the bump start and the plugs got wet. When a battery is really dumped it has a very low internal resistance and will demand a lot of current from the charging system leaving less for the other components.
Initial current is required for the fuel pump, fuel injectors, coil packs, ECU and running lights. If the system checks good now (No current leak good charging current and voltage) and there don't seem to be any more problems at present I would suspect it was a really bad battery.

 

[DefyInertia]

FWIW, I have bumpstarted a completely dead battery (FZ6) more than once before. I mean completely dead...clock not even showing up on the dash...nothing. My technique was sheer determination and lots of sweat. Just posting this so that people know if can be done if they are ever in a pinch.

 

[Se7enLC]

loose connection to the battery perhaps, or a problem with the kill/sidestand switch?

if the battery was completely flat then you probably wouldn't have enough juice to prime the fuel pump, that said something is seriously wrong if that happens

I didn't have a voltmeter with me, so I wasn't able to see just how dead it was, but it was enough that it tried very weakly to turn the engine, and then became just clicks. Normal dead-battery behavior.

Not a loose connection or kill switch issue, as it did try to start and acted like a dead battery, and charging the battery up fixed the problem.

I have had the same problem before with an AGM sealed battery from Batteries+. The FZ seems to be a bit harsh on batteries, especially if mods have been done. Have you done a headlight Mod or do you have a battery tender?

Yeah, I did the headlight mod, and I've had my suspicions that it pulls just enough more current to raise my charging-rpm threshold up above my average rpm. I have a battery tender, but I don't use it regularly (only when I kill it or notice that it's really low).

For me I found out that my battery tender did not work well with AGM style batteries. I went to a lifetime warranty lead acid battery from Cycle Gear and have not had a problem since.

I'm using a Yuasa sealed lead-acid battery I got from a local shop. What is AGM-style?

I've been reading more about LiFePo4 batteries in the last day or so, and I'm somewhat intrigued and may try one out, despite the 2x to 3x cost. I'd rather apply money to this problem than be left stranded again!

Most likely when bump starting is that the fuel pump was not able to prime the system. With a completely dead battery even a bump start is hard to pull off.

Ahh, that makes sense. I was thinking that it could also be the fact that charging doesn't really happen until higher RPMs, so it's hard to bootstrap. Not having fuel primed explains why the engine never kicked on, despite the fact that I was going what I thought was fast enough, and I'm pretty sure I did everything right to bump start.

Could be you had a bad battery the first time. If something totally dumped the battery there's a good possibility there was not enough current produced on the onset of the bump start and the plugs got wet. When a battery is really dumped it has a very low internal resistance and will demand a lot of current from the charging system leaving less for the other components.
Initial current is required for the fuel pump, fuel injectors, coil packs, ECU and running lights. If the system checks good now (No current leak good charging current and voltage) and there don't seem to be any more problems at present I would suspect it was a really bad battery.

Ah, that's a good thought. I'm still on the same battery, and it worked perfectly fine the next two days of hard riding. It charged up and held a charge fine. The battery is only a little over a year old like I mentioned.

Any idea on a good way to load test a battery myself? Or does carrying it into autozone and asking them to tell me "good" or "bad" all that can be done? I'd really like to have something quantitative I can measure myself for future problems.

FWIW, I have bumpstarted a completely dead battery (FZ6) more than once before. I mean completely dead...clock not even showing up on the dash...nothing. My technique was sheer determination and lots of sweat. Just posting this so that people know if can be done if they are ever in a pinch.

What year? I have a sneaking suspicion that subtle changes can effect how easy/possible this is. People seem to swear up and down that their battery does or does not charge at idle, and I suspect that both may be correct, depending on the year of the bike and their idle rpm. Perhaps the ability to bump-start is linked to that as well.

Apart from determination, can you describe what you did the last time you did it? I just want to make sure I'm not doing something that's just plain wrong. I'm even tempted to intentionally kill a battery just to make sure I am able to start it when I need to.

 

[Motogiro]

I'm even tempted to intentionally kill a battery just to make sure I am able to start it when I need to.

Don't intentionally kill the battery. Wet cell batteries can give up when you dump them. They like a life of being topped off. That's what a good tender will do. It looks at the battery and if it's at a good threshold it does nothing. When it looks and sees a lower threshold it gives a charge based on the battery's internal resistance.

And like Nate (Tenacious D) says. She will start. Probably wouldn't hurt to try WOT and be careful to get off the throttle when she fires.
Speaking of Tenacious D...LMAO!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lK4cX5xGiQ]Tenacious D - Tribute - YouTube[/ame]

 

[jazzpaintball]

AGM is a glass matt sealed battery that is supposed to be very low maintenance. I have used AGM batteries in cars with out a single problem, but I have gone through 3 in the last 2.5 years with the FZ. They were all Batteries+'s house brand if that makes a difference, but I just went with the lifetime warranty lead-acid.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

As Cliff stated, you could have just gotten a bad battery possibly with an internal short.

The original owner of my bike had the battery die the NEXT DAY after they brought the bike home brand new from the dealership. It was changed out by the dealership for a new one. I suspect it died from sales people playing with it, showing off the gauges, not re-charging, etc...

When my battery started to fail (Yuasa-years later) I noticed the dash lights just starting to dim. The clock didn't even reset, not yet at least...

I put a volt meter to an outlet (direct to the battery) and checked voltage while cranking/start up (lazy mans load test)... The voltage dropped down to 8 volts and the bike started fine, charged good. It did tell me the battery was indeed failing...

I don't like push starting and just ordered another OEM Yuasa which is still in the bike to this day.

While you have the voltmeter on the battery, check your voltage at idle (1300 or so) and up to 5K RPM's for charging. You really need about 1,300 RPMs to just start to charge the battery (with all the regular current drawing things running-fuel pump, lights, gauges, BD43 mod, etc)...

I've never had any luck with Batteries Plus and IMHO, would stick with the OEM battery.

Making sure the new battery is FULLY CHARGED BEFORE the initial use extends the life of the battery overall..


I've NEVER had any charging battery issues/dead batteries short of normal wear and tear over time. I've used heated gloves and vest in the winter as well, just turn them off while sitting at a light. I turn them back on once under way.. BTW, I do have my idle set at 1,000 RPM's (personal preference) and the battery does NOT charge at idle (with the BD43 mod).

 

[regder]

FWIW, I have bumpstarted a completely dead battery (FZ6) more than once before. I mean completely dead...clock not even showing up on the dash...nothing. My technique was sheer determination and lots of sweat. Just posting this so that people know if can be done if they are ever in a pinch.

I've had to do it three times this summer so far. All totally my fault, left the key on for at least ten hours each time. Bump started it the first two times, third time boosted it as I couldn't get it going by myself on flat ground.

Amazingly my bike is still on the original Yuasa battery, six years and 90+k km's. Has never let me down, unless I do something stupid like leave the key on overnight.

 

[DeusEx]

The fz6 is able to bump-start, tryed it several times and a friend of mine too on his bike.
There is always a little charge on the battery left, that is sufficient. It may not crank the motor, but its enough to give the command to the ecu.

The trick is to put it in 3rd gear, let go of the clutch lever at about 20-30km/h, and at the exact moment when you feel that the motor ist turning, press the ignition button!
The electric charge will tell the ecu to provide fuel to the bike...

 

[Clay350]

From everything described it HAS to be 1 of the three scenarios.

1. Bad battery or connection somewhere

2. Bad charging circuit. Why was the battery dead if you had been riding?

3. Unusual load on battery or short.

 

[Se7enLC]

The fz6 is able to bump-start, tryed it several times and a friend of mine too on his bike.
There is always a little charge on the battery left, that is sufficient. It may not crank the motor, but its enough to give the command to the ecu.

The trick is to put it in 3rd gear, let go of the clutch lever at about 20-30km/h, and at the exact moment when you feel that the motor ist turning, press the ignition button!
The electric charge will tell the ecu to provide fuel to the bike...

THAT is the step I was missing! I didn't press the ignition button! Thanks!

 

[jazzpaintball]

The fz6 is able to bump-start, tryed it several times and a friend of mine too on his bike.
There is always a little charge on the battery left, that is sufficient. It may not crank the motor, but its enough to give the command to the ecu.

The trick is to put it in 3rd gear, let go of the clutch lever at about 20-30km/h, and at the exact moment when you feel that the motor ist turning, press the ignition button!
The electric charge will tell the ecu to provide fuel to the bike...

I have bump-started my bike roughly 20 to 25 times with my unlucky bad battery streak. only 2 times was I unable to get it started.

Everytime was in second gear. Never heard of the ignition button idea. It personally does not make sense to me. All the ignition button would do is send current to the starter, effectively killing what little bit you may have in your battery to power the ECU, pump, etc.

It just seems backwards to me to try and use up more electricity when there is barely enough to get the ECU and display to turn on.

Besides, doesnt the ECU tell the bike to give it fuel at idol already? I dont need to press the ignition button every time I come to a stop for the fuel will cut out....

just my 2 cents.

 

[Se7enLC]

From everything described it HAS to be 1 of the three scenarios.

1. Bad battery or connection somewhere

2. Bad charging circuit. Why was the battery dead if you had been riding?

3. Unusual load on battery or short.

Yep, that about sums it up!

1). Battery might be bad, but it's only a year old. Always possible. I'll do some load testing and see if I can find anything conclusive.

2). Haven't gotten around to testing the stator, yet, but I'll get to that this weekend. I was riding in a lot of traffic recently, so it's possible I was not above the threshold for charging and had been draining it down for hours. When I parked it, it's possible I was already below the threshold for what I'd need to start it back up. I have the headlight mod and was charging both my smartphone and my FRS radio (only while running, accessories ignition-switched). The phone draws about 1A @5V, FRS is probably < 500mA @ 5V. I suspect my "charging RPM threshold" is higher than average, and my idle speed is around 800-900RPM.

3). No idea on that one.

What's ironic is that right before the trip, I made sure to replace my broken voltmeter because I had some suspicions about a problem with the battery or charging system. Analog voltmeters are worthless on motorcycles with a lot of vibration, so I ignored it when it was swinging wildly and started showing low values. I actually unplugged it entirely when I thought that perhaps it was the cause of the problems.

Digital voltmeter replacement is already ordered and I'll be keeping an eye on it and getting a feel for what RPM is needed to charge.

 

[jazzpaintball]

Yep, that about sums it up!

..., and my idle speed is around 800-900RPM.

That seems a bit low...

Maybe it is different for the S2 FZ6. The 05 i have idols around 1440 when cold and 1240 when warm.

May want to look that up in the manual, I am going to real fast....

Waffles

 

[Se7enLC]

That seems a bit low...

Maybe it is different for the S2 FZ6. The 05 i have idols around 1440 when cold and 1240 when warm.

May want to look that up in the manual, I am going to real fast....

Waffles

The 900RPM estimate is when it's already warmed up, I think it was more like 1100 when cold. I'll check it out to make sure, maybe I should adjust it up just to make it easier on the stator. The 07 has the analog tach, so it's also possible that there's just some inaccuracy when I'm reading it.

When I tried to bump-start, I had enough power for the display. I got a really good push down a hill, I let go of the clutch handle and saw the tach at around 1-2k RPMs, heard the engine whining (engine braking). The bike slowed to a stop, no sign of any fuel-burning at all, tach was just showing the speed that the engine was turning from the wheels.

I tried cranking the throttle to see if fuel would make the engine speed kick up, I tried pulling the clutch handle back in, assuming that once the engine was running, I'd want to make sure I didn't stall out. I'm dubious about the need to press the ignition key as well, but it wouldn't surprise me that there needs to be some indication to the bike to prime the fuel injectors.

Maybe there is a difference between the models, there were a lot of changes between 05 and 07.

 

[jazzpaintball]

yup, 2007 service manual, bottom of page 2-8:

Engine Idling Speed: 1250-1350.

That might be your problem, your battery is not getting any charging while at idle. Would make a huge difference if you are doing a lot of sitting due to traffic/city travel.

 

[jazzpaintball]

The 900RPM estimate is when it's already warmed up, I think it was more like 1100 when cold. I'll check it out to make sure, maybe I should adjust it up just to make it easier on the stator. The 07 has the analog tach, so it's also possible that there's just some inaccuracy when I'm reading it.

When I tried to bump-start, I had enough power for the display. I got a really good push down a hill, I let go of the clutch handle and saw the tach at around 1-2k RPMs, heard the engine whining (engine braking). The bike slowed to a stop, no sign of any fuel-burning at all, tach was just showing the speed that the engine was turning from the wheels.

I tried cranking the throttle to see if fuel would make the engine speed kick up, I tried pulling the clutch handle back in, assuming that once the engine was running, I'd want to make sure I didn't stall out. I'm dubious about the need to press the ignition key as well, but it wouldn't surprise me that there needs to be some indication to the bike to prime the fuel injectors.

Maybe there is a difference between the models, there were a lot of changes between 05 and 07.

Do you remember giving it any throttle? Mine will got kick over unless I have it at about 20-25% throttle. May have to more since I get more fuel than normal at 15-60% throttle due to my power commander III.

 

[Se7enLC]

yup, 2007 service manual, bottom of page 2-8:

Engine Idling Speed: 1250-1350.

That might be your problem, your battery is not getting any charging while at idle. Would make a huge difference if you are doing a lot of sitting due to traffic/city travel.

I think you win this thread! That would explain all of my problems. I'll check it when I get home and report back with what the idle is currently at and adjust it. Instructions for adjusting the idle are on page 3-8 of the service manual for anyone else following along or finding this thread in a search later. Thanks!