Engine Trouble Warning light after 8000 rpm

[Silvia6]

^^ Cliff, good eye and good observation. Is it possible the ECM throws a fault due to the engine being under temp? Sounds unlikely but :don'tknow::don'tknow:

Silvia,
Any chance you have a DMM? I'm curious what the battery voltage is at idle and above 8000?

So, without a load, it Revved to 9000 but with a load i.e. riding it, it fails to accelerate, but keeps running as you keep it above 8000.

What does it really do during this time? Is it missing, sputtering, how does the tone sound? Anything to give us some insight about its running when it fails to accelerate would be helpful. This is STRANGE!!!

If there were NO WARNING light but it failed to Rev above 8k I'd be normally looking at some of the following:

Fuel delivery, i.e. loss of pressure/volume for the demand
Spark energy, i.e. do this at night in pitch black and look for high voltage arc-over from spark plug wires, either from ground or to each other.

Because its so RPM dependent; I still wonder about the crank trigger.

- I measured the battery a few weeks ago (when I replaced it) in idle speed and when accelerating (but not over 8000 rpm, I measured it at 5-6000 rpm) and the voltage was right (I don't remember the precise values but ~14.4 V when accelerating and ~13.4 in idle speed).

-Actually, (as far as I could notice with my very noisy helmet) there is no strange sound, no signs to warn me that there is something wrong and if it weren't for that light I probably wouldn't have noticed anything. Tomorrow, before work, I will take a ride on the highway (I live in a very crowded city and there's no way I can reach 8000 rpm in the city), I will test it again but this time paying more attention to what you have pointed out. I will also test it in all gears, to see if the warning light appears exactly the same in all gears (I first noticed the problem when I was in the 6th gear at ~110 mph/170kmh). I am very curious about what happens if I don't turn off the acceleration and I keep riding at >8000 rpm with the warning light on (in terms of sounds, or motorcycle behavior), but I don't want to do any damage to my beloved motorcycle.

-The spark plugs are new and according to the manual: cr9ek (normal, not iridium). When I replaced the old ones I saw that the previous owner had used cr9e spark plugs, not cr9ek (thing which, after seeing the spark plugs, I thought caused the warning light - but it didn't). I don't know how to perform the operation that you described, with the spark energy, but I will do some research to see what I have to do and how to do it.

- The loss of loss of pressure/volume for the demand seems to be a good point and something that can cause this, as well as the crank trigger. I'll look into that.

Also, there is a question that keeps coming to my mind: do you think it is possible that this problem is related to the injectors?
The situation is very strange indeed. And extremely annoying, as I can't really put my finger on it. I'll keep you guys posted as I make more progress with the investigation.

Thank you again so much for the support and great ideas!

 

[FinalImpact]

Looking for sparks jumping in the dark (near pitch black) lets us know there is high energy leakage. I don't think that would be RPM specific nor would the ECM have a means of detecting it which is a key factor in this issue. How does the ECM know something is up?.

I'm not sure how to explain this but here it goes. This engine has very limited feedback from its sensors. That is, there is minimal two way communication to tell the ECM something is wrong other than a sensor giving an invalid input to the ECM under some given condition. The crank trigger is the only thing telling it what RPM the engine is at. With that and things like the engine temp, engine vacuum, the ECM outputs from a lookup table spark and fuel according to the throttle position.

When is the last time it was 100% normal? Was there work done to it that created this fault? As for the plugs, what did you gap them at (0.028") and did you check the cap to wire tension. Also, do you have a DMM? You might want to check the CAPs for having 10K ohms of resistance but once again, this is NOT the cause of CEL coming on. Just little things that help it run better if found and corrected (if there out of spec).

Was this ever jump started from a running auto? If the crank sensor is not bad, my next suspect if all wiring is good is the ECM.

 

[Silvia6]

I bought the motorcycle with this problem almost 2 months ago from Romania, from a guy who had originally bought it from England (or so he told me). Meanwhile, he has left the country after selling most of his things. I don't have any information about the previous work done on the motorcycle but, as I said...the motorcycle was not taken care of properly.
Initially, I suspected that this problem is caused by the oil or the spark plugs, a problem that would be solved in no time, so I didn't pay too much attention to it, especially since the motorcycle functions flawlessly.
And since I bought it, all the work on the motorcycle has been done by me, according to the manual specs and steps.

I went for a longer ride yesterday, paying attention mostly to 2 things: any weird sounds or vibrations before the warning light turns on.
So, the new feedback is:
- there is no loss in power, even with the warning light on. After the light went on, I accelerated more and it kept getting more and more power. If I don't stop accelerating, the lights stays on. If I stop accelerating, the light goes off.
- there is a stronger vibration after 8000-9000 rpm, but I don't know if this can actually cause this problem (and I am not sure if this vibration is normal for this bike or not).
- there is no strange sound, no clicking, no clattering, before the warning light goes on

I will check the air filter again (it is not OEM, it was an aftermarket air filter and maybe there is a problem with it?!) and I will clean the gas filter because to me, the fuel delivery seems to be the most logical cause for this warning light (I've never done this operation since I bought the motorcycle and I am sure that nobody did this operation for a long time, if ever).
I've been thinking and, since the light turns on even in neutral, no load, I think we can eliminate anything related to the crank trigger or chain sensor, don't you believe so?

 

[Silvia6]

Was this ever jump started from a running auto? If the crank sensor is not bad, my next suspect if all wiring is good is the ECM.

When my battery ran out, I started the motorcycle from another motorcycle, not from a running auto, but I repeat, it had this warning light problem even before running out of battery, so there is no connection between the two facts.

 

[FinalImpact]

I will check the air filter again (it is not OEM, it was an aftermarket air filter and maybe there is a problem with it?!) and I will clean the gas filter because to me, the fuel delivery seems to be the most logical cause for this warning light (I've never done this operation since I bought the motorcycle and I am sure that nobody did this operation for a long time, if ever).
I've been thinking and, since the light turns on even in neutral, no load, I think we can eliminate anything related to the crank trigger or chain sensor, don't you believe so?

All Good info you shared and that helps. I'm sure it does. I just don't know how yet!

The engine has no way of know the air filter condition. Its just a big pump. When all things are correct; it works more efficiently. So, not likely but I would pull the cover and LOOK. You have everything to gain and nothing to loose.

OK - the fact that it doesn't cut out, loose power, slow down or do anything strange even tho the light is on - that is threading the needle but for the life of me, I'm not sure what its telling us. I continue to circle back to the ECM getting invalid information. At a glance, I think it is not the crank trigger as striking it under load would VERY LIKELY CAUSE A MISFIRE or FUEL ISSUE. But that doesn't mean its not suspect.

I think you need to inspect the wiring harness between the ECM and the cluster? Perhaps disconnect the battery and unplug the harness at the cluster. See anything?

Key information; the engine has VERY LITTLE feedback to the ECM in regards to how well its running. Other than the O2 sensor, it doesn't know what the hell is going on. Its like you flipping a light switch on. You changed the input; and from this you see the light came on or didn't. You can observe this. The engine has just two sensors cable of observation in this manor - the O2 sensor and the Crank sensor. I don't know for certain but at a glance the TPS sensor is not questioning the Crank Sensor. "Hey, someone twisted the throttle, did you speed up or slow down?" The Crank sensor just outputs a pulse. Its the one engine sensor that MUST ALWAY GIVE A VALID OUTPUT or the ECM shuts the engine off.

I'm leaning more towards cross talk, a bad communications, a faulty connection, RF interference from the ignition???? IDK!!!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Any updates?

 

[Silvia6]

No, not just yet. I paused a little the problem with the warning light and I focused on the brakes (cleaning, bleeding, pampering them, singing them a song), as I wanted to have a little break to think and rethink the situation and the steps I've done..maybe I was missing something.
I`m still doing some research and apparently there is one more thing to consider. Some bikes have a rpm limitation or warning (for example to alert you when to switch gears), a limitation which could be very easily removed by a combination of the Select and Reset buttons on the LED panel (something like a Morse code, but with the Select and Reset button, in a certain order).
Taking into consideration that I checked and rechecked and everything was ok...and the fact that the bike functions flawlessly...I wonder if this is not the case...a silly thing like rpm limitation?

 

[Silvia6]

Hello again,

I didn't have time to check what I wanted to, since I was with a bike on a mini-holiday (~500 miles), driving most of the time on the highway. This is what happened.. I don't know if it's helpful...but here it goes:
- driving the first 70 miles - everything was perfect, no engine warning light even after 9000 rpm (I was actually under the impression that the problem somehow disappeared or fixed itself by default)
- after driving 100 miles, the warning light lit. I slowed down a little, reducing the speed and the rpm to less than 7000 rpm. The warning light turned off but for the rest of the trip (which is ~4 hours), every time I passed 7000 rpm the warning light turned on.

But the strangest thing was that sometimes it lit at 85/mph-137kmh and sometimes it lit at 90mph-146kmh. It was never at the same speed or exact rpm.
I continued to drive with the warning light on and everything was ok, no temperature rising and no problems (except for the warning light).

The temperature indicator was always fine,3 out of 6 lines (even after a 4 hours ride without stopping).

I will not have time to work on the bike this week and the following week I'm going on holiday through Europe with the bike. But the moment I'm back I will take the bike to the Yamaha dealer and hopefully solve the mystery.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Any updates?

 

[Silvia6]

Hello guys,

I'm back after my mini-tour. The bike was great, ~6000 km and no incidents, no bad behavior, except of course, for the red light. I pretty much ignored the whole red light thing and I rode the motorcycle as I would normally do.

But, for the past 2 days there is something fishy going on:
- one day, coming from work I noticed that the throttle is not linear and it was kind of hopping, as if it was not getting enough fuel and it was choking, and then as if it was getting too much gas and had too much power. This only happened once.
- the second day in the morning, I got on the bike to go to work and the engine stopped all of a sudden as I was releasing the clutch in the first gear. I tried starting the bike and nothing seemed to work. If I kept the throttle fully open and push the ignition button, the bike would start, but the second I released the button, the engine stopped again. I pulled over and I finally managed to start the engine and go to work, but the same story happened as I was heading back home.

I had a full gas tank in all situations, so it was not related to lack of gas..

Today, as I went to work nothing happened, all went well. But the idle speed seems to be lower than usual. Usually, the idle speed is 1250-1350 and now it is 970-1110.
So, next weekend I have an appointment to check the fuel filter, replace it or clean it and see what is there.

 

[norcalwelder]

Have you checked the throttle position sensor? This recent thing sounds alot like the symptoms of a failed TPS. If you get into the diagnostic screen on your speedo, you can quickly test it to make sure it gives you the proper valves.

 

[Silvia6]

Wednesday I will go to the Yamaha dealer to check the bike and I will get back to you with updates.

 

[Silvia6]

So, I checked the TPS values with the Diagnostic Mode for the TPS and the values are within rage: 16 when throttle closed and 100 when throttle fully open. It goes smooth from 16 to 100, so it seems ok. In a few hours I will go to the Yamaha dealer and see what they have to say about it.
The bike still runs uneven, as if there is not enough fuel, especially in low rpm. In high rpm everything seems ok, except for the engine warning trouble light, after 8000 rpm.

 

[Silvia6]

I'm back from the yamaha service and what happened was:
- they noticed that the ride was bumpy and the throttle remains stuck from time to time
- they read some errors the bike had (one was about the battery, one about the crankcase sensor, one about the leaning angle sensor and another one about the tps - I recognize only 2: the one about the leaning angle - i dropped it while offroading, or at least trying..and the one about the battery..the other two errors...I have no idea)
- they removed the tank, the air filter and they cleaned the valves
- as they removed the air filter, they noticed there was something there: a gift from the previous owner, a nut, but that not what was blocking the throttle, the thing blocking the throttle was the dirt. They cleaned everything, the throttle went smoothly
- they adjusted my throttle cables, as they said they were too loose
- they adjusted the clutch cable from the nuts close to the frame (yeeey!)

They took the bike for a ride, it was ok. I took the bike for a ride, it was ok. I tested the clutch, the throttle, the idle speed. Everything was perfect. The red engine warning trouble light does not appear when I pass 8000rpms in neutral (I haven't tested it yet on a longer ride though, only while riding from the dealer to my house, so it's still a question mark).
But, as I kept riding, all of a sudden, the throttle would not return all the way!!! The idle speed increased from 1250-1300 to 1440-1550 and the throttle remained open (they did not adjust the idle speed, the idle speed was as before, no changes there). And it was lazy to return, it accelerated very well, but it remained stuck somehow. I arrived home, I let it cool down a little and I tried to adjust the throttle cables (maybe they were too tight..). They aren't. I tried adjusting it from the handlebar as well, now it seems to respond normally when I accelerate, but so was when I left the yamaha service.
Tomorrow as I go to work I will see what happens, and if the story with the throttle repeats itself ...I will got to the yamaha dealer...again. And I will check if there are any error codes again (they cleaned all the previous error codes)..

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'm back from the yamaha service and what happened was:
- they noticed that the ride was bumpy and the throttle remains stuck from time to time
- they read some errors the bike had (one was about the battery, one about the crankcase sensor, one about the leaning angle sensor and another one about the tps - I recognize only 2: the one about the leaning angle - i dropped it while offroading, or at least trying..and the one about the battery..the other two errors...I have no idea)
- they removed the tank, the air filter and they cleaned the valves
- as they removed the air filter, they noticed there was something there: a gift from the previous owner, a nut, but that not what was blocking the throttle, the thing blocking the throttle was the dirt. They cleaned everything, the throttle went smoothly
- they adjusted my throttle cables, as they said they were too loose
- they adjusted the clutch cable from the nuts close to the frame (yeeey!)

They took the bike for a ride, it was ok. I took the bike for a ride, it was ok. I tested the clutch, the throttle, the idle speed. Everything was perfect. The red engine warning trouble light does not appear when I pass 8000rpms in neutral (I haven't tested it yet on a longer ride though, only while riding from the dealer to my house, so it's still a question mark).
But, as I kept riding, all of a sudden, the throttle would not return all the way!!! The idle speed increased from 1250-1300 to 1440-1550 and the throttle remained open (they did not adjust the idle speed, the idle speed was as before, no changes there). And it was lazy to return, it accelerated very well, but it remained stuck somehow. I arrived home, I let it cool down a little and I tried to adjust the throttle cables (maybe they were too tight..). They aren't. I tried adjusting it from the handlebar as well, now it seems to respond normally when I accelerate, but so was when I left the yamaha service.
Tomorrow as I go to work I will see what happens, and if the story with the throttle repeats itself ...I will got to the yamaha dealer...again. And I will check if there are any error codes again (they cleaned all the previous error codes)..

Sounds like you got most of it sorted out but I'd definitly be bringing it back and have them re-check the throttle cables (routing, etc).

That sudden acceleration and lazy return is not safe.. I keep my cables as taught as possible but you have to chack and make sure when turning the forks, the engine doesn't speed up..

 

[Silvia6]

Latest updates:
- I returned to the service to fix the problem with the cables..they cleaned them, they adjusted them again..
I left the service and on my way, the bike stopped running when I closed the throttle, dropping the idle speed to 600 rpm. I started the bike again and continued my way..but the history repeated a few times.

I called the service again and I made another appointment. They synchronized the injectors (?!) and they sent the TPS part nr. to Yamaha, to check if it was replaced or not on a warranty claim. That was yesterday afternoon.
They suggested I should wait a day or two until they receive an answer, they assembled the bike and I prepared to leave. After a painful 100 m drive, the throttle did not cooperate with me anymore and when I wanted to accelerate, the engine stopped. Then, when I put the contact on, I got an Error on the dashboard - 15, and the engine warning trouble light was on, but this time it will not go off. I pushed the bike back to the service and Today I called and it seems that Yamaha asked the Romanian Yamaha dealer to send a picture of the TPS and a picture with the VIN nr. (???!!!!) and apparently now they have to disassemble the bike again, to take pictures and send them to Yamaha, and after that, they will give an answer. This whole thing seems kinda strange to me, as this is a very simple question: "was the TPS changed on a warranty claim or not?"..yes or no answer..
And now I wait......they said that the TPS, after they order it, will arrive in 7-11 days..so this means at least 2-3 weeks of no more riding for me
(and I am curious if -after the TPS replacement- the engine trouble warning light will still turn on after 8000 rpm).

 

[Silvia6]

Amazingly, I just got a phonecall from the Yamaha service, it's a warranty claim, so the TPS will be replaced free of charge..but I still have to wait ~2 weeks for the part to arrive.

 

[FinalImpact]

I'm sure you know this by now, but that error directly relates to the TPS.... Oddly an over tight or damaged cable that doesn't pull smoothly can make things show up that otherwise didn't before. I hope this solves it! Also if the cables are suspect, you might just have them replaced. Is it real dusty there? This could reduce their effective life span.


Fault Code: 15
Diagnostic Code: 01
Symptom: Throttle position sensor-open or short circuit detected.
Probable cause of malfunction:
Open or short circuit in wiring sub lead.
Open or short circuit in wiring harness.
Defective throttle position sensor.
Malfunction in ECU.
Improperly installed throttle position sensor.

Related but not the same...

Fault Code: 16
Diagnostic Code: 01
Symptom: A stuck throttle position sensor is detected.
Probable cause of malfunction:
Stuck throttle position sensor.
Malfunction in ECU. 01

 

[Motogiro]

My friend who is also a member here had a TPS problem with his car. He had the service manual. I tested the TPS per the manual with an ohm meter and it passed. Smooth readings throughout its entire range on the ohm meter. Still the car acted like the ECU didn't know where the TPS was positioned except at idle. I said let's replace it with a new one. Motor runs great now! There are probably anomaly like noise that the ohm meter will not show. If the noise is present the ECU hiccups but may not throw a code.

 

[FinalImpact]

My friend who is also a member here had a TPS problem with his car. He had the service manual. I tested the TPS per the manual with an ohm meter and it passed. Smooth readings throughout its entire range on the ohm meter. Still the car acted like the ECU didn't know where the TPS was positioned except at idle. I said let's replace it with a new one. Motor runs great now! There are probably anomaly like noise that the ohm meter will not show. If the noise is present the ECU hiccups but may not throw a code.

The TPS has very high resolution in the A to D world (Analog to Digital). What we see in the diagnostic mode is a just a small snip-it of the data the ECM is seeing and acting upon. Like a break in the TP (toilet paper), some times missing bits are unacceptable! Tailgate, are you listening??? :BLAA: