Bad ide sound

[thisisdylan]

Hey guys, thanks for keeping the thread bumped. Sorry for the suspense, I'm out of town and am away from my bike, but I've been reading all your posts.

I have not ordered a clutch basket or any other parts yet. Haven't even washed out the sump and basket yet. My last post was the latest work I've done.

I'll take some pictures or maybe a video of the gears when I get home (or not if there are no scars) and start cleaning out the sump and basket. Very glad to hear that I might not need to remove the basket to inspect this. I'm crossing my fingers that there are no scars on the gears since the bike has run for a total of 90 seconds or so since the plate snapped.

If I find scars on the gears I may live with it for a while. I would probably ride the bike and keep an eye out for a good basket for sale. Not sure yet. The minor sound FinalImpact mentioned will probably not bother me, but I would like to avoid creating more aluminum shavings running through my engine. Filing and smoothing out a scar on a gear is something I don't know anything about.

When I get everything put back together, I was thinking of running some 10w40 I need to get rid of, changing it after a few days for some more 10w40, and dumping it again for 10w30 to maybe get some particles out of spots I didn't reach.

Stay tuned for the gear inspection!

 

[FinalImpact]

Yes; shooting from the hip, but once you hear the sound (be it a Yamaha, Kawi, Honda, ect - dont matter), you know what it is!! The fact that clutch is in fact blown out pretty much says it all.

Frankly the chunks from a blow clutch can pretty much harmlessly lie in the pan and they'll stay right there. Its right when they leave the basket an hop through the gears that reaks (spell?) hell!

Not my bike but as stated; 50% of the noise is the clutch basket gear. Buying used basket isnt as much of gamble if the discs come with it and they are all there! A seller selling only the basket; well - that i would in fact stay away from!

The thing is the flaw is so tiny, the average persons eye is not gonna see it easily.

 

[thisisdylan]

Re: Bad idle sound

I hand cranked the crank for 3 or 4 revolutions of the basket gear and did not see any scars or even any friction plate bits on either gear. I sprayed some brake cleaner around the basket and crank, back sprayed the strainer, and cleaned out the sump.

Right now I put the sump back on, installed the new plates, and am having a hard time putting the clutch casing back on. The main problem is fitting the push rod in the center. The manual says to push the pull lever (against the direction of the spring) so the punch mark aligns with the arrow on the casing (see pic), which I did. When I get the pushrod gripped by the axle in the casing, the fit is off, not sure by how many teeth, but enough so the pull lever cannot move the push rod very much at all.

Sorry for the bad explanation. Basically when I reinstalled the clutch cable to the pull lever, it was extremely loose. I think because the teeth between the push rod and axle are not aligned properly. Any tips to reinstall this casing?

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Bad idle sound

As stated; damage can be hard to see on the gears but it's there somewhere.

Lever; rotate it as far counterclockwise as it goes and feed the cover on to the engine. If the lever dot goes past the Triangle mark in a clockwise direction, then on your next attempt, do not turn it clockwise as far as the previous time and feed the cover onto the block again.
When you get it right; the triangle and the shafts dot will align as tension is applied to disengage the clutch.

This has nothing to do with attaching the cable. Just index the gears so the marks align.

Anyway - you need good light, a sharp eye and maybe some magnification. Obviously if the spot on the gears stood up like a pimple it would lock up and not rotate so the flaw is very small! Removing the flaw now reduces the wear and damage done to the crank. If it were mine I'd be looking closer. However, its possible the gears are bent/displaced slightly and there is nothing to see. That said, the sound it makes is the sound of the primary gears having a mesh issue. Peak around on youtube for blown clutch videos and listen to those bikes... Same sounds when clutch goes through primary drive gears.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Bad idle sound

Glad you didn't find any marks, etc.

Re- the alignment, the rod, with the "gears", inside the pressure plate, should be pulled out, as if ready to pull apart(or dis-engage) the clutch assembly.

You'll just have to experiment, rotating the main shaft(the "gear" engages with) until it lines up. Depending on which way the arm is going, you'll have to move it one tooth at a time till it lines up.

Here's a pic of mine, lined up and adjusted. As you know, that LOWER arm doesn't move much (approx 3/8").

 

[FinalImpact]

I understand and remember that members bike that DID have material transfer to the gears.

As I re-call, you can see all parts of the outer basket gear to crank gear W/O pulling the basket.

Even checking run out of the crank with a dial gauge should be able to be done as it sits.

Are you referring to gears UNDER the basket, not visible?

I'm just saying, a "Good Angle is Critical" and that's hard to get with the clutch basket in the way.

I'll let the pictures do the talking...

^^ Thanks Again Adam!! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Also, there is this: From: http://www.600riders.com/forum/gara...ine-clacking-noise-cracked-clutch-damage.html
YouTube

 

[thisisdylan]

As stated; damage can be hard to see on the gears but it's there somewhere.
[...]
Anyway - you need good light, a sharp eye and maybe some magnification. Obviously if the spot on the gears stood up like a pimple it would lock up and not rotate so the flaw is very small! Removing the flaw now reduces the wear and damage done to the crank. If it were mine I'd be looking closer. However, its possible the gears are bent/displaced slightly and there is nothing to see. That said, the sound it makes is the sound of the primary gears having a mesh issue. Peak around on youtube for blown clutch videos and listen to those bikes... Same sounds when clutch goes through primary drive gears.

Took another look, still didn't see anything. For now I am not going to deal with it. I will replace the basket if I notice a sound develop.

Lever; rotate it as far counterclockwise as it goes and feed the cover on to the engine. If the lever dot goes past the Triangle mark in a clockwise direction, then on your next attempt, do not turn it clockwise as far as the previous time and feed the cover onto the block again.
When you get it right; the triangle and the shafts dot will align as tension is applied to disengage the clutch.

This has nothing to do with attaching the cable. Just index the gears so the marks align.

I've gotten a lot better at taking this casing on and off today, but I still have lots of clutch cable slack. To make things easier, I started zip tying the pull lever to the top right bolt hole (the one which holds up the silver clutch cable holder thing) to hold the lever's punch hole taught past the arrow while I fit the teeth. Using this method I tried turning the lever clockwise as far as it would go, turning it a medium amount past the arrow, and I have already tried keeping it exactly in line with the arrow. Still when I screw down the casing I get a floppy clutch cable. The cable is set correctly in the pull lever and in its holder, but when I attach the cable into the clutch lever at the handlebar, even with the cable adjusting bolt almost fully unscrewed, the cable still has no tension.

From your description that I bolded, it sounds like the ending position of the punch hole is meant to line up with the arrow, clutch cable or no. I've installed it like this without luck, and installed it with the punch hole past the arrow (clockwise) which theoretically should give more tension.

Re- the alignment, the rod, with the "gears", inside the pressure plate, should be pulled out, as if ready to pull apart(or dis-engage) the clutch assembly.

You'll just have to experiment, rotating the main shaft(the "gear" engages with) until it lines up. Depending on which way the arm is going, you'll have to move it one tooth at a time till it lines up.

Here's a pic of mine, lined up and adjusted. As you know, that LOWER arm doesn't move much (approx 3/8").

Photobucket's down for maintenance, I'll post a pic shortly when its up but its the same as your first ^^^ picture.

Thanks for the photo attempt, Townsends. When its uploaded I think it will help. I'd like to see the pull lever's punch hole and casing arrow's positions when installed. By lower arm you mean the lever axle? (Part 22) Mine moves about the same distance, maybe a bit more.
I must be missing something here because I've installed this pull rod and casing in many positions, and I know the teeth are catching.

Hope I explained this correctly. It seemed like a pretty easy job but is proving to be a bit difficult. If anyone needs want me to take some photos, I will tomorrow.

 

[FinalImpact]

Clarification:
Clutch cover has a pointy arrow shaped triangle on it. The Lever being actuated has a dot on it. Those two MUST align WHEN the lever goes from LOOSE to a state of TENSION whereby tension would disengage the clutch. So, if the cable is attached; I'd suggest removing it so you have nothing impairing what you feel.

Looking from the top down, simply rotate the lever CounterClockWise as far as it goes WITH THE CABLE REMOVED!
Now slide the cover on and seat it (no bolts). Does the arrow and dot on the lever align? Yes - repeat same process with sealer and install bolts.
Did the levers "DOT" go past the arrow or stop short of the arrow?
Short - twist the lever back more and reseat the cover to the block (no bolts and hand test tension).
Past - If it went past, twist it less and mate the cover to the block. No Bolts, No cable, just look and align the dot to the arrow using your fingers rotating the lever clockwise.

Repeat process until you find the happy spot that allows the arrow and dot on the lever to align and APPLY TENSION when Rotated ClockWise!

Make sense?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Dylan, re your above post, yes we're on the same page. You do have to remember that as the cover slips on, that shaft (#22) will move some. So you do have to take that into account when assembling. Its correct when, with hand pressure, the LOWER CLUTCH ARM marks line up with hand pressure.



Photobuckets up finally.

The pic below IS with the cables attached and adjusted correctly.

As noted previously, when installing the vertical shaft (with the little lever at the top), it HAS TO GO in slightly off set approx a tooth. I believe FI noted above.

**As it engages the clutch pull (notched rod), its going to rotate slightly***.

My pic (and marks) do have knats hair of play before the cable tightens up and dis-engages the clutch.


Once that lever, with only hand pressure on the lower lever line up, your good. THEN, adjust your cables..


*You may also try the installation while on the center stand. I say this should the notched rod (from the clutch) keeps sliding back towards the clutch IF THE BIKE IS ON THE SIDE STAND


(Great pictures too Randy, tks)

 

[thisisdylan]

Thanks for the clarification guys. I wish Yamaha added a punch hole for where to line up the lever when installing as well as for after installation!

But I think I found a reason why I'm having trouble. I noticed I am able to move the plates (about the width of a plate) in the basket even with the pressure plate on and the spring bolts torqued to spec. Don't know how I didn't notice it sooner. Also, the bike is in first gear because it was the only way to torque the spring bolts without turning the whole basket.

I removed the pressure plate to check if its punch hole was aligned with the basket's punch hole. It was aligned properly.
I removed the plated to double check there wasn't one missing. All 16 plates were in the exact proper order.
I put these parts back on and torqued it to 5.8 ft lbs (70 in lbs on my wrench). Plates still can move.

Why is there extra space for my plates to move around? Am I wrong here or could this be why there is no back tension turning the lever counter clockwise, causing the cable to have zero tension?

I must be missing something, because I can't tell what I could have missed when installing the plates. I've been looking at this diagram and my clutch and can't see what is missing. I didn't tear anything down past the plates, and I didn't forget the 2.3 mm drive plate that goes in first.



I think if I can fix this, I will be okay. Installing the casing is very easy now, and I can get the arrow and punch hole aligned just fine, although it has little room to move.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sounds like you have everything correct.

Those plates, as you noted, SHOULD BE TIGHT TOGETHER as you assemble it and tighten down the pressure plate.

Is the bearing and "pull pin" (especially the pull pin) seated fully in the pressure plate? (I don't believe it can go in wrong actually), but something is obviously amiss.


Couple things, not likely but worth checking. Measure your old clutch plates vs the new ones. The new ones should be the same or a knats hair thicker (no wear).

For S&G's, assemble the clutch without the pull pin(don't even bother putting in the springs / bolts in) and see if there's still a gap in there..


**Looking at your parts pic (previous page), friction plates 5 and 7 are apparently different than the rest.

NOTE, on page 5-52 in the S2 Yamaha service manual is a page showing in detail, the clutch assembly. Refer back to that for exact spec's on each plate.

Don't worry about the clutch cable at all, once the clutch itself is sorted out, that should take care of that..

As a side note, I can look in my oil filler hole, while looking at the clutch, pull the handlebar clutch lever and see the clutch, clutch plates loosen up slightly.

PM me if you need the page sent to you.

 

[FinalImpact]

Look real close at the fiber backed discs and where they contact the clutch basket. See the contact marks where the disc wore into the basket? The fiber discs should be contacting the EXACT same area they were before not in fresh unworn area on the basket as this would indicate the assembly process is incorrect.

Also, if you put it in gear can you roll/spine the rear wheel? I would assume so; but if its locked solid and the discs have free space then the steel plates are stacked wrong and bound up.

You did soak the discs in oil overnight; yes?!

 

[FinalImpact]

From our OWN Site....
2007++ FZ6 Parts Reference Diagram/Images X46

Q? Can you see the difference between the two different fiber discs?

The two #12's vs #5. Same thing on the steels. Can you see the difference on the 4 vs #6?

Just a random picture and no telling if those parts are in order but I would think the clutch fiber discs should not be against aluminum hub as it ** APPEARS** in those drawings... Take a count of what really came out and tell us if you have two steel plates with wear ON ONE SIDE ONLY!!

From; http://www.600riders.com/forum/new-riders-q-and-a/56378-2007-fz6-wont-start.html

 

[thisisdylan]

Ok so I had the clutch boss and pressure plate punch holes misaligned. Whoops. I mistook another punch hole on the clutch boss for the one to line up with.

Got them aligned properly, and the plates have no more room to move. Put the cover on, and got the lever punch hole lined up to the arrow. I found that when putting the cover on, it works well to have the arm directly over the cover's arrow. This aligned the punch hole perfectly when the cover was fully installed. Moving the lever arm by hand, I saw the plates separate.

After filling it with some oil, I started it up and took it for a ride. The clutch felt great! Sadly there is still a ticking from the basket and camshaft gears. Kind of loud and disgusting sounding at idle, but when moving it goes away. I could post a video if you guys want to compare with the video in the OP. Without an aftermarket exhaust, the bike is quiet enough to be able to hear it low speeds, but the sound goes away when taking off.

I'm going to dump my oil after a few days and change the oil filter. The next thing on the list is to look for a decent clutch basket to buy. What should I look for in a used one? Like you mentioned, FinalImpact, I would hate to buy a replacement basket and find scars on the teeth. I'll also need a rear tire because I got a nail in it on my test ride today.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Glad you got it back together but too bad you DO have that new noise (just like the other guys bike).

Hopefully, just another basket will solve your problem...

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Bad idle sound

Yesterday I pulled in my clutch at about 10 mph and heard a 'snap' sound. Thankfully I was already at home so I didn't have to ride it any further, but now my idle sounds terrible (see video).
The past few days I've been trying to get the front wheel up, so my guess is that it's the clutch. Hopefully it's just a snapped tab on a plate or a spring holder, and not anything in the bottom end. My buddy and I are going to open up the clutch tomorrow.

Any thoughts?

https://vid.me/adMn

Glad it's all back together! A favor please; after you get say 250mi on it, take another video using the same equipment and roughly the same place (sound waves) and same distance so we can compare. Well unless it doesn't change sound.... But def let us know if it gets louder too!

Question; when under load and pulling or maybe even coasting, does the sound change?

Tks!

 

[thisisdylan]

Re: Bad idle sound

I'm over 250 miles and I'll make an idle sound video soon to compare to the OP. The clutch still feels great, and the idle still sounds crap.

How should I go about buying a new basket? I want to fix this idle sound badly. Used ones are not too expensive, but Final made it sound like a crapshoot that the teeth won't have scratches.
eg: Clutch Basket 2009 Yamaha FZ6R FZ6 R Outer Gear | eBay

Question; when under load and pulling or maybe even coasting, does the sound change?

YES. I've had another disgusting sound. Only when taking off I can hear this nasty crunching sound (see vid). It's happened a handful of times. I don't take off aggressively either, usually at 4k rpm or lower. No idea where it's coming from.

https://vid.me/P5J3

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re: Bad idle sound

No idea what that sound is but it isn't good.

Hopefully, its basket related and not a transmission with a bearing now failing.

One thing "good", with that NEW noise, it may be a little easier to find
where its coming from when you go back in again..


Note. As I re-call, the last member, with the initial noise as yours, couldn't
find the issue either, after a complete tear down. He ended buying an entire,
used transmission which solved the problem... He did the labor himself..

 

[FinalImpact]

Re: Bad idle sound

Is that sound ONLY there when the clutch is being used? If so (and it wasn't there before), I'd be looking right at that bearing connected to top hat on the clutch...

How about this; place the front tire against an object you know the bike can not move or collapse and place it in 3rd gear. For brief second take it 2500 rpm and partially release the clutch while a helper places their hands on the lever you worked to index coming from the RS case. If the noise and vibration bare present I'd go after that bearing #7. Hold lever #25.

By chance did you clean the oil from that bearing and not lubricate it during install?

Also, when the clutches end cap was not indexed properly bit was tightened down, could it have loaded and damaged either #7 or #16????

When exactly does it make this noise and when specifically is it quite??

 

[thisisdylan]

Re: Bad idle sound

Cold start idle sound video: https://vid.me/4ROM

No idea what that sound is but it isn't good.

Hopefully, its basket related and not a transmission with a bearing now failing.

One thing "good", with that NEW noise, it may be a little easier to find
where its coming from when you go back in again..


Note. As I re-call, the last member, with the initial noise as yours, couldn't
find the issue either, after a complete tear down. He ended buying an entire,
used transmission which solved the problem... He did the labor himself..

Wow that would be annoying. I was hoping to save for a crank if the new basket didn't solve the sound issue.

Is that sound ONLY there when the clutch is being used? If so (and it wasn't there before), I'd be looking right at that bearing connected to top hat on the clutch...

Yes, so far this only happens with taking off in first. I'll rev to 4k rpm and let the clutch out (not crazy fast), and the crunching occurs when I am beginning the re-engagement of the clutch. I'll open it up soon and look at it again.

How about this; place the front tire against an object you know the bike can not move or collapse and place it in 3rd gear. For brief second take it 2500 rpm and partially release the clutch while a helper places their hands on the lever you worked to index coming from the RS case. If the noise and vibration bare present I'd go after that bearing #7. Hold lever #25.

By chance did you clean the oil from that bearing and not lubricate it during install?

The bearing was surely dry because it was sitting for a few weeks, but I oiled it as well as lubing the pull arm with moly grease.

Also, when the clutches end cap was not indexed properly bit was tightened down, could it have loaded and damaged either #7 or #16????

Doubt it, but I'll double check. I guess this would be the cheapest to replace

When exactly does it make this noise and when specifically is it quite??

Just in 1st when taking off. I rode all day today and didn't experience this problem if I take off slowly.