Two or four fingers?

[bdevries]

Hey all,

I spent the winter reading motorcycle articles and browsing this forum. Today was the first day of my 'Canadian equivalent of the MSF course' course and a few things they mentioned surprised me.

They asked us to use all 4 fingers on the levers, that way if we ever had to squeeze the brake all the way in, we would be able to. But, the way I have my lever set up, I can't even squeeze it all the way in if I tried, so having fingers there doesn't affect that. I figured that having 2 fingers on the brakes/clutch would allow me to grip the bars better as well. Whats the consensus on this? I know these guys have experience etc, but there's always situation where professionals have different opinion.

I also asked about throttle blipping and they said they don't recommend it, which to me makes 0 sense. Why take the time to slip the clutch in slowly when you can quickly flick your right wrist and pretty well just dump the clutch out since the rpm's match? Also, lower chances of the rear tire locking up.

Thoughts?

 

[trepetti]

Go ahead and make fun..... I use 2 fingers on the brake and 4 on the clutch. I bought long levers for both to maintain symmetry.... What can I say...I got issues! Blah

 

[darius]

But, the way I have my lever set up, I can't even squeeze it all the way in if I tried, so having fingers there doesn't affect that.

Why can't you pull the brake lever all the way in? Nothing obstructing in your set up I hope.

 

[greg]

Go ahead and make fun..... I use 2 fingers on the brake and 4 on the clutch. I bought long levers for both to maintain symmetry.... What can I say...I got issues! Blah

Me too, the clutch requires more pressure, plus I want to feather it a lot more than the brakes.

 

[Erci]

Go ahead and make fun..... I use 2 fingers on the brake and 4 on the clutch. I bought long levers for both to maintain symmetry.... What can I say...I got issues! Blah

Exactly what I do! I used to use 2/2, but on FZ1, clutch travel is super long and starts to grab right at the bar.. anything, but 4 and fingers get pinched.

As to the original question: MSF (BRC and BRC2) is aimed at beginners. They feel it's easier to initially teach someone to fully separate rolling on throttle and braking by using all 4 fingers for either throttle or brake.

There are plenty of bikes out there where 4 fingers are required to achieve maximum braking. FZ6 is not one of them. Many sport bikes can do it with just 1.

Blipping throttle.. same story. Definitely not for beginners. Should you do it if you can, of course you should.

MSF is not really a place to learn advanced sport riding techniques. It's a place to learn to be as safe as possible.

ARC (advanced rider course) offers a upper body shifting exercise (not the butt though) and trail braking. That's as advanced as it's going to get, in terms of sport techniques.

 

[bdevries]

Why can't you pull the brake lever all the way in? Nothing obstructing in your set up I hope.

Nope, nothing in the way. I squeeze to about 75% of my strength and theres a good inch between the lever and the bars. Besides, if I squeezed any harder on the road my rear end would come up or the front would break traction..

Exactly what I do! I used to use 2/2, but on FZ1, clutch travel is super long and starts to grab right at the bar.. anything, but 4 and fingers get pinched.

As to the original question: MSF (BRC and BRC2) is aimed at beginners. They feel it's easier to initially teach someone to fully separate rolling on throttle and braking by using all 4 fingers for either throttle or brake.

There are plenty of bikes out there where 4 fingers are required to achieve maximum braking. FZ6 is not one of them. Many sport bikes can do it with just 1.

Blipping throttle.. same story. Definitely not for beginners. Should you do it if you can, of course you should.

MSF is not really a place to learn advanced sport riding techniques. It's a place to learn to be as safe as possible.

ARC (advanced rider course) offers a upper body shifting exercise (not the butt though) and trail braking. That's as advanced as it's going to get, in terms of sport techniques.

Fair enough, I understand what you mean. It just puzzles me that when I asked them (on break, not in the middle of the class) they said 2 fingers is a big no-no. Same with throttle blipping.. they could have told me it was more for advanced riders and to just focus on todays tasks but didn't.. I continued to throttle blip anyways since it's almost second nature already, it just feels so much better then slowly letting the clutch out..

 

[aclayonb]

Go ahead and make fun..... I use 2 fingers on the brake and 4 on the clutch.

Same, same.

 

[FinalImpact]

Fair enough, I understand what you mean. It just puzzles me that when I asked them (on break, not in the middle of the class) they said 2 fingers is a big no-no. Same with throttle blipping.. they could have told me it was more for advanced riders and to just focus on todays tasks but didn't.. I continued to throttle blip anyways since it's almost second nature already, it just feels so much better then slowly letting the clutch out..

The coach I had 3 years ago said it was because; "if you suddenly lost brake pressure, your fingers won't impair the levers travel". lol

Me being me, replied with something about hydraulic failure, you have a greater concern than smashed fingers.... They were not impressed.

But, the logic there is, don't let your "unused grippers" impair the stoppers.

As Eric said, Throttle Blip is not taught there so they can't endorse it. On our 600 you can get away with it, bikes that make torque you best match the speed or buy a slipper clutch.

I think the goal at class time is to build habits that keep the rider safe. As you ride more you add more tools to your list that keep you safe. In this case and depending on "how you ride" a blip is an efficient tool.

 

[darius]

Not sure how strange this is but I tend to keep my index finger around the throttle for blips and middle finger covering the brake to steady the throttle inputs.

I brake with 3 fingers. 4 on the clutch.

 

[Erci]

Not sure how strange this is but I tend to keep my index finger around the throttle for blips and middle finger covering the brake to steady the throttle inputs.

I brake with 3 fingers. 4 on the clutch.

That's definitely not a preferred technique.
Ideal combos:
1 finger - only index.
2 fingers - index + ring.
Lastly - all 4 fingers.

Same general concept.. don't want to pinch index finger, but if lever is set up so max braking is achieved long before it bottoms out on your finger, I suppose it's OK.
I can tell you all coaches would jump on your case for using that particular combo in class.
Another thing to remember about coaches: some have never ridden sport bikes.. good luck stopping some of those cruisers with less than 4 fingers :rof:

Blipping throttle on a Harley? That's something only done at a full stop.. at every red light :rof:

(end of cruiser bashing)

 

[darius]

That's definitely not a preferred technique.
Ideal combos:
1 finger - only index.
2 fingers - index + ring.
Lastly - all 4 fingers.

Same general concept.. don't want to pinch index finger, but if lever is set up so max braking is achieved long before it bottoms out on your finger, I suppose it's OK.

Makes sense. That's how I brake and transition smoothly with the twitchy fizzer throttle. My lever is set up very firm so very little travel with standard braking.

This is separate from emergency braking where I'd be focusing 100% on stopping w/ 4 fingers expecting that the lever travel and pressure would be far greater than usual.

 

[DeepBlueRider]

I'm 2 on brake, 4 on clutch.

I'm not concerned about squeezing lever all the way in. Even on FZ6 with stock master cylinder, stainless steel lines and upgraded pads I can lock the wheel in the middle of usable brake lever range. Most of my braking is just tapping the lever.

Squeezing all the way in is overrated :cheer:

 

[Erci]

Makes sense. That's how I brake and transition smoothly with the twitchy fizzer throttle. My lever is set up very firm so very little travel with standard braking.

This is separate from emergency braking where I'd be focusing 100% on stopping w/ 4 fingers expecting that the lever travel and pressure would be far greater than usual.

See.. this is another reason why it's not advisable. If you use the ring + middle most of the time, you build up muscle memory.
In an emergency, you may find yourself reaching for the brake with ring + middle.

If you can't do full-on quick stop with ring + middle, I say it's not a good idea to use that combination.

I use index + middle for everything: scrubbing off speed, coming to a stop, quick stop (practicing my quickest stop possible).

It's worth thinking about.

 

[FinalImpact]

Slightly off topic - but very important regarding hand strength, hand cramps/pain, endurance and setup up of levers....

When your on the bike and in position, rotate your levers so the imaginary line from your shoulder, through your forearm, wrists and fingers are all parallel. The factory location for the levers usually has most of us pointing our wrists upwards which pinches nerves and cuts off circulation. In short - lever position is dependent on torso length and your lean angle.

This post is from another topic; but notice how far the levers are rotated? The levers angle in relation to the bar nearly makes a straight line to my shoulders rotator cuff.

Also, something I advocate about bike setup can be seen here. Notice my fingers are nearly straight in line with my wrist and forearms?? The OEM lever position has your wrists pitched upwards to reach the levers which cuts off circulation.
Point: adjust those levers so your wrists are parallel to your forearm so you have a straight pull.

 

[Erci]

Slightly off topic - but very important regarding hand strength, hand cramps/pain, endurance and setup up of levers....

When your on the bike and in position, rotate your levers so the imaginary line from your shoulder, through your forearm, wrists and fingers are all parallel. The factory location for the levers usually has most of us pointing our wrists upwards which pinches nerves and cuts off circulation. In short - lever position is dependent on torso length and your lean angle.

This post is from another topic; but notice how far the levers are rotated? The levers angle in relation to the bar nearly makes a straight line to my shoulders rotator cuff.

Excellent advice and point. I learned exactly this, many years ago in mountain biking.

 

[bdevries]

Slightly off topic - but very important regarding hand strength, hand cramps/pain, endurance and setup up of levers....

When your on the bike and in position, rotate your levers so the imaginary line from your shoulder, through your forearm, wrists and fingers are all parallel. The factory location for the levers usually has most of us pointing our wrists upwards which pinches nerves and cuts off circulation. In short - lever position is dependent on torso length and your lean angle.

This post is from another topic; but notice how far the levers are rotated? The levers angle in relation to the bar nearly makes a straight line to my shoulders rotator cuff.

yep, the forearm is strongest in its neutral position!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I front brake with two fingers, pointer and middle. With the SS lines, you don't have to pull as far for the same stopping distance VS the stock rubber lines. I also cover the lever (normal riding) with those fingers while underway (unless doing a really hard acceleration)..

Re the clutch, again, I cover with the index and middle fingers but pull and release the clutch with all four fingers.

Seem to have a little more control with the clutch control with four fingers.. (I don't think I could pull the clutch lever with two fingers).

Somewhat related, I'm in the habit of using both front and rear brakes (under nrormal conditions) all the time. Mostly to have that habit ingrained in my noodle, for EMERGENCY STOPS, it kicks in automatically. That couple of extra feet may save your butt...

 

[bdevries]

I front brake with two fingers, pointer and middle. With the SS lines, you don't have to pull as far for the same stopping distance VS the stock rubber lines. I also cover the lever (normal riding) with those fingers while underway (unless doing a really hard acceleration)..

Re the clutch, again, I cover with the index and middle fingers but pull and release the clutch with all four fingers.

Seem to have a little more control with the clutch control with four fingers.. (I don't think I could pull the clutch lever with two fingers).

Somewhat related, I'm in the habit of using both front and rear brakes (under nrormal conditions) all the time. Mostly to have that habit ingrained in my noodle, for EMERGENCY STOPS, it kicks in automatically. That couple of extra feet may save your butt...

Nice! As of the course this weekend I'll be starting to use my back brake more.. for sitting on a hill as well coming to stops around town. As far as spirited riding goes, I'm not sure there's much point since there's pretty well no weight on the back during riding and the tire is already trying to slow due to engine braking.

As for me, I've found I'm most comfortable with 2 on the brake, 2 on the clutch.

 

[Beerdrinker]

Go ahead and make fun..... I use 2 fingers on the brake and 4 on the clutch. I bought long levers for both to maintain symmetry.... What can I say...I got issues! Blah

The same... but without the issues!

 

[Carlos840]

I use 2 fingers on the clutch, unless i am being lazy or at a red light, then i use all 4.

On the brake i use mostly my middle finger, with the index resting on the lever and ready to come into play if need be.

I always throttle blip.