just getting a minor incident off my chest

[greg]

Can't really talk to non-bike friends about this, and family and close friends would worry if I told them.

Riding from my work to the city tonight, about a minute or two down the road the cars I was following braked a bit more suddenly than I expected, no worries as I was at a safe distance. The roads were a bit wet and greasy as it had been raining, and it was going dark.

I'm not 100% sure of what happened, but I think I was braking with the front and rear as usual (as I wasn't going that fast). My back locked up and started fishtailing around, I couldn't really use the front brake as my bike was flailing around so much, luckily there was a large gap next to the car that I headed to. I was able to get the bike under control, brake and stop, finishing a foot ahead of the car I almost hit. The engine must have stalled too when I locked the back up which didn't really help matters.

Heart racing and pumped full of adrenalin I waved a thanks to the driver who let me in front of them (not sure if they saw what happened), and I carried on even more cautiously than before.

I guess I need to be a bit more careful about cold tyres, especially in the damp, I've locked the wheels up a couple of times just afer setting off, this was the closest I've come to an accident though.

Most of it was pure instinct, and the only thing I was concious of was heading for the gap next to the car instead of rear ending it. One of the few times I didn't have my helmet camera running too

Not something I plan on repeating, it does make me think a bit more about getting an ABS equipped bike though.

 

[2wheelieadv]

No worries. A little close call. Just learn a lesson and carry on.
The rear is easily get locked especially on wet. Try always to stay on right or left side of a car in front, like near the center line between cars. And yes, ABS is long overdue to be in all bikes, especially street ones.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Glad you kept it up on two wheels...

Just some "Monday morning quarter backing" to consider.

Alot (myself included) cover the front brake with a finger or two. Some, (myself included) cover the clutch lever as well (two fingers again, just habit) while at a steady speed (or when comfy).

If you can get into that habit, for the rare times you need it(just covering the front brake) can save you several feet, even in the rain, just keep it upright and wheel straight ahead


I had a similar situation years ago on a full dressed HD (Police bike), non abs.. We were in rainy season and it was just starting to roll in. I was scooting to get back to the station and the road was already wet(nice and greasy too). As I got off the main drag, onto the turn off lane, there was a semi tractor trailer sitting there waiting to pull out. As I slowed down abrutly, the rear started to lock up. I literally pumped them (like a slow ABS system) and leaned on the fronts as hard as I dared, keeping the bike STRAIGHT UP. I stopped literally 3-4' (from doing about 50MPH) from the drivers door. He just looked at me like, oh s..t!. I state to this guy siting there, "I hate when that happens!", made my right turn and off to the station. Liteally slow motion...

Live and learn!! :thumbup:


BTW, something to practice, that I learned years ago (in an advanced Police Motorcycle training class). They took us out to the boonies, a divided road, with no curbs, grassy median, no traffic. At about 40 MPH, they had us practice, pull in the clutch, go OFF ROAD into the grass, and LOCK UP THE REAR TIRE INTENTIONALLY, to skid to a stop. We did this several times (W/O incident).

It just helps you to re-inforce, in your brain, (and hopefully become instinctive) what your bike can do if needed to do. One more thing in your "safety arsenal" to keep it on two wheels

 

[greg]

I think I had front covered, or was using it, the back locking up was just quite unexpected. I'd probably unloaded the weight from the back more than I realised.

I do have to say that the very small amount (a single day) of motocross experience I have has helped tremendously in situations like this.

 

[elus1ve]

Looks like your reflexes are still working!

Had a very similar exp last week-end going about 70mph on the highway with a buddy. We couldn't see there was traffic jam up ahead and only saw the cars in front of us all brake suddenly. That very moment always gives you a dose of adrenaline!

Given there was about a safe-ish distance between the front car and us, I managed to do an emergency brake. With colder temp, the rear tire locked up and was flailing and smoking generously but the front stayed put. I usually manage not to lock my front(luckily) but I can't modulate the rear as well. I stopped safely abeit with lots of dramatic smoke and smell of burning rubber. My buddy who was 2 up on his Z1000 couldn't stop and had to zoom pass on the other lane where there was more space. He stopped the length of two cars further.

Live and learn like they say but keep practicing those emergency braking. I still got to train my right foot to modulate the rear brake. Seems that since I have had a FZ1 handlebar and more of my weight up front, I tend to lock my rear tire much more easily.

Be safe.

 

[FZ09Bandit]

You made it. We all make mistakes, even tlthe most experienced of riders. As long as your ok.

 

[Carlos840]

This is one of the reasons i pretty much never use the rear brake to actually brake.

The more braking you apply with your front brakes, the lighter the rear tire becomes, the less grip it has and the easier it will lock up.
If you are using your front brakes to their maximum, your rear brake should be so light that pretty much no braking power can be applied to it, rendering it useless.

The old 70% power comes from the front and 30% comes from the rear only applies if you are afraid to apply a lot of front brake and your rear is still heavy.

I have done car park tests, and the rear brake has no influence on my braking distance, because my back wheel is barely touching the ground in case of emergency braking.
If i use less front brake and more back brake i actually end up taking longer to stop.

All in all, i only use the rear brake as a stabilizer, to stop at very low speed if my front wheel isn't straight, and as a way to keep my brake light on when stopped at a light.

Anyway, glad you made it out ok! It might be worth going to a car park and practicing emergency stops... I do it on a regular basis and really think it is worth doing.

 

[greg]

tbh coming in to work today I suspect that I could have hit a pile of wet leaves, which tend to collect in the centre of the road

 

[kenh]

tbh coming in to work today I suspect that I could have hit a pile of wet leaves, which tend to collect in the centre of the road

We are in Fall in the Midwest and have had our share of wet weather lately. Yesterday morning on the ride to work I turned out of my driveway and felt the rear slide out a bit - wet leaves. These low speed reminders are great for shuffling a few seasonal thoughts back up to the front of the brain.
While you experienced the rear wheel lockup, I would not abandon it. The contact patch with the road is so much smaller than a car's based on tyre geometry and number of contact points. The rear brake while unable to provide the stopping force of the front, is better at controlling abrupt weight transfer.
Under normal braking conditions I find myself using much more rear than front.
Sometimes when I am traveling along at 50 mph and I catch a yellow light when I can easily make it through I do a quick of my mirrors and and execute a sudden stop, just for a little practice. :thumbup:

 

[greg]

yeah, tbh I kind of know what went wrong, and am fairly happy with my reflexes.

should emphasise the other important point, I focused on where I wanted to go, not what I was trying to avoid.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

While you experienced the rear wheel lockup, I would not abandon it. The contact patch with the road is so much smaller than a car's based on tyre geometry and number of contact points. The rear brake while unable to provide the stopping force of the front, is better at controlling abrupt weight transfer.
Under normal braking conditions I find myself using much more rear than front.

Agreed 100% ^^^

Yes, the front provides most of the braking (in normal conditions), however to not use ALL the braking forces you have available doesn't make sense to me. You may pick up 1', might pick up 30'. I'll take ANY DISTANCE. It's just a matter of practice.

IE, should you end up on say sheet ice, (extreme case), its much easier to stop (and stay upright) using the REAR WHEEL ONLY. Even in full lock, if you practice it, it can be done very easy and controlled.

That's why we practiced it in the ADVANCED Police Motorcycle School. And that beast is MUCH heavier than the FZ...

 

[Tailgate]

I have rear brake ABS: my right foot!

 

[FIZZER6]

glad you made it out without impact!

The important lesson here is not so much how to control a bike in a skid in the wet but more importantly to increase following distance in wet conditions and always expect a car driver to do the unexpected. From the circumstances it sounds like a bigger cushion on the car you were following and you would not have to post this thread at all. :thumbup:

 

[MG-242]

Not much to add other than what has been said. I suggest practicing like you ride. If you ride in the rain, then practice braking in the rain. If you ride faster than 25 mph, then find a deserted road instead of a parking lot to practice. Things definitely change a lot at 50 mph comparted to 25 mph. And, between a wet surface and a dry surface. A nice dry parking lot is a good place to start, but you also want to practice real world situations.

Nice job keeping it up, going around the car rather than into it! Target fixation can be a problem. It's always good to have a plan B or C and an escape route. Glad you came out of it unscathed.:thumbup: These situations can be an indicator of where you might want to focus your efforts to improve your riding skills.

 

[Erci]

Glad you avoided a crash, greg!!

I just want to add one thing which I don't think has been brought up by anyone yet: in MSF, we teach that the really critical part of street riding safety is time / space. Following distances need to be adjusted based on conditions.

I tell the students that it's very important to practice quick stops often (whichever way you do it.. with rear brake or without.. and when it comes to this I find it varies greatly from bike to bike. On FZ6, front-only worked better for me, but that doesn't mean it's the right or wrong way to do it), however.. quick stops in real world situations should be very occasional (few a year), IF your following distances and your ability to identify factors are really good.

If you (not greg, but any reader) find yourself having to do quick / emergency stops on the street frequently, you're not doing it right.

 

[greg]

tbh it didn't really become an emergency stop until my back locked up and I started skidding towards the car.

Going to drive down the same road tonight in my car, so I'll see if my hypothesis was right

 

[FinalImpact]

This is one of the reasons i pretty much never use the rear brake to actually brake.

The more braking you apply with your front brakes, the lighter the rear tire becomes, the less grip it has and the easier it will lock up.
If you are using your front brakes to their maximum, your rear brake should be so light that pretty much no braking power can be applied to it, rendering it useless.

The old 70% power comes from the front and 30% comes from the rear only applies if you are afraid to apply a lot of front brake and your rear is still heavy.

I have done car park tests, and the rear brake has no influence on my braking distance, because my back wheel is barely touching the ground in case of emergency braking.
If i use less front brake and more back brake i actually end up taking longer to stop.

All in all, i only use the rear brake as a stabilizer, to stop at very low speed if my front wheel isn't straight, and as a way to keep my brake light on when stopped at a light.

Anyway, glad you made it out ok! It might be worth going to a car park and practicing emergency stops... I do it on a regular basis and really think it is worth doing.

To re-enforce this ^^ I'm always a dual braker and have upgraded suspension bits so the bike performs well with minimal dive compared to stock. But at highway speeds the rear brake is so easy to lock during hard nose braking. Its best for parking lot and low light braking!

For me I've found there is a turning point "speed wise" where the rear is nearly useless and is nothing but trouble. So as your speeds go up, example over 50mph the transfer of weight to the nose happens so quick that rear brake application best be at a minimum unless your goal is to slide about.

That said its going to be different for everyone depending on how hard you brake, your setup, , speed, tires, temperature, road surface, and countless other variables.
In short - if the lean angle is not to great the nose will take a way may brake input than most of us give it. By covering as mentioned above, it gives you the option to ease into to and this little bit of time is usually enough to stand the bike up for max braking.

Greg, glad you kept your wits and found an opening! Good job!

 

[payneib]

Seeing as we're sharing, anyone mind if I vent? I had a close call this morning at the junction pictured, and I'm still angry about it.

I was traveling north on the A19, turning right to go up the A163. It was dark, I was on a black bike, with headlight on, and dayglo kit and helmet. I saw a car waiting to pull out from the left, so indicated plenty early to give them as much information as possible about my intentions. As I came level with the junction on the left, a car pulled up at the junction on the right (my turn off) and stopped. I moved across the hatched area (no other traffic around, I'm a badass and I wanted to give the guy on my left space), and started slowing down to make my turn (it's a first gear job, and a bit tight). As I came level with the front of his car, just about to tip the bike in, he just came at me. Straight at me. A blast from my new 130dB horns stopped him in his tracks, and earned me a horn back, and some hand signals suggesting I was in the way. I'm still angry about it now. There's no way he didn't see me. A combination of bright white, and flashing orange lights right in front of him. What the hell was he thinking? Grrrrrr.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sounds like he was a bit anxious to get going.