Intermittent Death - Everything Else Works Fine ? !

[TommyT]

Afternoon y’all, new to the forum - I’ve had a search around for my the problem I’m experiencing, but nowhere seems to have exactly what I’ve got (great).

Went out for a nice blast the other day, everything fine - came to a set of traffic lights on the way home and the engine just cut out. No splutter, no nosense, just off (similar to pressing the killswitch - hang on, I’m getting to that). A minute of panic and it starta again, all normal, only to happen again down the road. Managed to get it home but it was happening again every now and then along the way.

Torn it down and built it up again 3 times. Inspected most wiring, all fuses, checked, rechecked, rebuilt the killswitch just to be safe, Put a meter to it all, everything is fine (I mean, what the hell man) ?!

After building it up for the third time, pressed the horn in anger. TO MY DISBELIEF when I tried the ignition it started up as normal, and ran good for at least the ride around the parking lot. It did die, but I was able to start it again no problem.

It’s probably a Ground Wire somewhere I guess? Can anyone shed light on where?!?

Some stats for you;:

2006 FZ6-N

41k on the clock

No warnings / Errors

Diagnostics show all sensors operating normal

Idle normal

Battery normal

Spy 5000M alarm fitted ( I have checked without this and it’s still the same)

Symptoms are: Switch on, all working fine, except no fuel pump priming and zero start (not even turning over or even a click).

Many thanks for any help in advance, I have little hair left with this issue...

 

[Motogiro]

:welcome: to our great forum!
You may have a bad connection within the the keyed switch or at the soldered bottom of the switch. If you can jumper the kill switch it would eliminate the kill switch for sure.
Another place to look would be in the harness wiring in the steering area where the harness wire bends. I've see the wires also get pinched at the triple to from steering stops.

There is also the possibility that the kickstand switch is malfunctioning and triggering a safety circuit shut down. That safety cutoff circuit looks at things like your clutch lever switch, neutral safety switch and side stand switch. Does this problem only exist when the bike is in gear? Will it always start if it's in neutral?

 

[TommyT]

:welcome to our great forum!
You may have a bad connection within the the keyed switch or at the soldered bottom of the switch. If you can jumper the kill switch it would eliminate the kill switch for sure.
Another place to look would be in the harness wiring in the steering area where the harness wire bends. I've see the wires also get pinched at the triple to from steering stops.

There is also the possibility that the kickstand switch is malfunctioning and triggering a safety circuit shut down.

Thanks for the advice Motogiro,

I've already disconnected and pulled out the entire killswitch loom, stripped the black housing and checked for faults. I ran a multimeter through the wires also to check for continuity - I was really hoping that it would be the KS but sadly no - after I re-wrapped the loom I tried jumping the switch altogether with no avail

Looking at the DIAG menu, I can see the sidestand switch (I have no centrestand) flick on and off when I go in and out of neutral with the stand down - this tells me that it should be working normal... When the engine started running earlier, I also tried flicking it down with the clutch in, and it worked as it should. (it is also worth noting that the previous owner changed to ASV levers and did not get the clutch switch tab, so the clutch switch can effectively be ruled out also)

I've just driven to the gym and back, it's a 15 minute ride each way with plenty of time for the bike to cool down while I was in there, and there is no problem currently. This is kind of annoying because we all know it's going to rear its' ugly head again right when I'm off to meet a bird or something :banghead:

Is there a ground wire that encompasses both the starter relay and the fuel pump? Clutching at straws here...

I have just looked at the DIAG 60 menu and it showed be 12, 22 and 30 - although I haven't looked/cleared it since I was mucking around earlier - I had the tank off and I switch it on and off a couple times.

Any ideas?

 

[Motogiro]

Error 12 is Crankshaft Position Sensor, Error 22 is Air Temp Sensor and Error 30 is Lean Angle Sensor,

I would think a ground loss would be a major multi system failure with ER 1 being thrown which is pretty typical with a power loss. I don't know if the Lean Angle sensor would inhibit the starter from cranking. I know it would stop the motor from running.

Does that spy 5000m have an interrupt?

 

[TommyT]

Error 12 is Crankshaft Position Sensor, Error 22 is Air Temp Sensor and Error 30 is Lean Angle Sensor,

I would think a ground loss would be a major multi system failure with ER 1 being thrown which is pretty typical with a power loss. I don't know if the Lean Angle sensor would inhibit the starter from cranking. I know it would stop the motor from running.

Does that spy 5000m have an interrupt?

If what you mean by interrupt is the alarm having the ability to kill the engine then yes - however I have tested the bike whilst bypassing this function. Also, it works the other way around - I can switch on the bike using the remote as if I had just turned the key, and off again with no problems. Very strange.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Either your immobilizer or more likely the RED KILL SWITCH.

Literally HOT WIRE (CONNECT THE TWO switch wires together) to rule it out.

The contacts inside that switch get arced up, not enough spring tension, etc- VERY common issue, especially if you use it often.

 

[TommyT]

Either your immobilizer or more likely the RED KILL SWITCH.

Literally HOT WIRE (CONNECT THE TWO switch wires together) to rule it out.

The contacts inside that switch get arced up, not enough spring tension, etc- VERY common issue, especially if you use it often.

I'm certain I've eliminated the KS by checking this already, the only problem I have now is that the bike is working fine XD so difficult to check if it is indeed the KS. I never use it anyhow...

As for the immobiliser, the bike is exhibiting immobilised symptoms, however I'm not getting any flashyflash in the usual sequence when I twist the key, as you would expect if either a) the chip in the key had failed (come to think of it, I haven't tried using a different key yet) or b) if there were to be some other immobiliser issue..

Quick question - would my alarm or indeed any other component function normally if it was not grounded?

 

[twobob1]

Be interesting to see how they wired the alarm up. Intermittent faults are horrible. Anyway you could disable the alarm completely or take it off the bike for now to see if it is that?

 

[Motogiro]

Quick question - would my alarm or indeed any other component function normally if it was not grounded?

If a component or device requires a ground it must be used. Especially anything or part that is direct current powered. AC circuits can operated without ground because the ground is a safety circuit unless it is a GFI power outlet. I've seen people use the ground wire as a common return (bad news). Still never operate an AC device with a compromised ground unless it is a double insulated device rated for the environment it is being used in.

 

[TommyT]

Be interesting to see how they wired the alarm up. Intermittent faults are horrible. Anyway you could disable the alarm completely or take it off the bike for now to see if it is that?

They = me XD. Believe me I spent hours on that thing, and the wiring is spot on - no hooky stuff here. I have tried disabling the alarm and the fault still exists. What a bother.

If a component or device requires a ground it must be used. Especially anything or part that is direct current powered. AC circuits can operated without ground because the ground is a safety circuit unless it is a GFI power outlet. I've seen people use the ground wire as a common return (bad news). Still never operate an AC device with a compromised ground unless it is a double insulated device rated for the environment it is being used in.

I think what I meant to ask is: If my alarm/horn/lights/anything was grounded and the connection came loose, would it still work just, in a dodgy way?

 

[Motogiro]

They = me XD. Believe me I spent hours on that thing, and the wiring is spot on - no hooky stuff here. I have tried disabling the alarm and the fault still exists. What a bother.



I think what I meant to ask is: If my alarm/horn/lights/anything was grounded and the connection came loose, would it still work just, in a dodgy way?

Yes. If the ground were loose or not complete you would have problems. The frame of the bike is used as a ground path for some of the harness and requires some scrutiny

Sent from Moto's Motorola

 

[TommyT]

Thanks to everyone for their input, currently everything running normal so I will just have to check out the grounds when the problem arises again (I'm sure it won't be long !!). I'll update you guys when I find out!

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

When you tested the switch:

" I've already disconnected and pulled out the entire kill switch loom, stripped the black housing and checked for faults. I ran a multimeter through the wires also to check for continuity" ,

were the wires hooked up to the switch and MOST importantly, did you manipulate the SWITCH ITSELF for continuity thru the two wires? Usually, manipulating the switch will cause the issues and will get worse with time.

I'd stay in the curb lane should the engine act up on you again..

Also, I'd personally un-hook the alarm, just to firm up it isn't the alarm causing your issues..

**BTW, in the 9 years here, I've never read of a ground wire causing issues, (short of loose battery terminals and the plastic terminal cover partially stuck between the wire and the battery.)

 

[twobob1]

Just had a thought, have you tried a different key?? They have little immobiliser chips in them. Have you got the red key and the black key? maybe tape all the keys you have around the ignition barrel and ride round for a bit see if it cuts. Might help rule it out if it is something to do with that.

 

[kala]

Hello!

Since my bike has done something similar a year ago and happens every now and then, i am suspecting the Ignition-Coils because i have changed spark plugs multiple times over the years and only things that can't be changed are ignition wires, they come with the ignition coils.
1. engine warms up
2. ignition coils/wires start to give spark into ground throught the insulation of the wire
3. problems

What about this theory?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Hello!

Since my bike has done something similar a year ago and happens every now and then, i am suspecting the Ignition-Coils because i have changed spark plugs multiple times over the years and only things that can't be changed are ignition wires, they come with the ignition coils.
1. engine warms up
2. ignition coils/wires start to give spark into ground throught the insulation of the wire Coils don't give spark to ground thru insulation. They send spark thru the wire to the center electrode of the plug. The spark jumps from the center electrode to the GROUND STRAP.
3. problems

What about this theory?

See bolded above ^^.

Kinda rare coils go bad.

Not un-heard of BUT the Red Kill switch, (especially if used), IS the first thing that should be suspected. The side stand switch, occasional, gets crap in it and the contacts fail...

The Red kill switch kills the entire engine(at worst), or run crappy. Both coils going out at the same time, very likely NOT.

Testing, for coils failing (besides checking electronically), putting a lazer temp gun pointed at the header CLOSE to the head will show TWO of four cylinders cooler than the other. IE, one coil, for those two cylinders aren't working correctly..

 

[TommyT]

When you tested the switch:

" I've already disconnected and pulled out the entire kill switch loom, stripped the black housing and checked for faults. I ran a multimeter through the wires also to check for continuity" ,

were the wires hooked up to the switch and MOST importantly, did you manipulate the SWITCH ITSELF for continuity thru the two wires? Usually, manipulating the switch will cause the issues and will get worse with time.

I'd stay in the curb lane should the engine act up on you again..

Also, I'd personally un-hook the alarm, just to firm up it isn't the alarm causing your issues..

**BTW, in the 9 years here, I've never read of a ground wire causing issues, (short of loose battery terminals and the plastic terminal cover partially stuck between the wire and the battery.)

Oh that switch had never been switched so many switches until i switched it.. i jiggled it around and all sorts, to properly test but it just didn't seem to be any problem at all.

I have spare, original keys as well as the fabled red key, next time it dies I'll try those (hopefully not too far from home XD) however I wasn't getting the immobiliser LED flash sequence you'd expect. I guess I can't solely rely on that as I've never seen it in action before.

I'm off out riding again today so probably in the middle of my day it's gonna happen... perhaps I'll take my spare keys with me (the thought of taking the red key even out of my safe makes me a little uneasy but..)


Thanks again for your continued input, I appreciate it.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That is the easiest way to test the kill switch, usually it works. Just manipulating the switch back and forth(side to side) checking for the engine to quit...

Not familiar with the immobilizer as we don't have them in the states. There have been issues with them acting up thou..

Good luck..

 

[TommyT]

Ok... Tether officially running out...

So I redid the ground wire for my alarm, because I thought that the fitting looked a little corroded. I also looked around again to see if everything looked fine and it does. Everything is working fine. So I've gone out for a long ride, and I mean really belting it :thumbup: multiple stops and traffic lights and also long straights of 120mph +

I get to the traffic lights closest to home and it dies again! Only for a short moment and then it's back. I manage to get into my garage and it dies again, this time not coming back. Argh!

Being that the dash is displaying normal with no errors, it MUST be that some sort of switch is being triggered. Does anyone know in what circumstances the ECU would cut the engine and inhibit restart? So far I can think of the following:

- Killswitch engaged
- Tip sensor triggered
- Immobiliser engaged

How about if the engine temp or coolant temp too high? Or the sensor at the air filter?

Many thanks again in advance !

PS I have also tried using the spare & red key to no avail...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

The "tip over sensor" re-sets itself once the bike is stood back up.

The coolant / engine temp should not stop it from starting nor kill the engine, even if it was overly hot (which it doesn't sound like it was).

I would disconnect your after-market alarm altogether if it has a "kill" feature in it, just to rule it out.

About the only things left are the immobilizer, red kill switch and side stand switch.

The Red kill switch can be by-passed/hot wired ON, below the battery (as I re-call), just follow the loom and jump it in an inconspicuous place.

The side stand switch has a small spring inside it, lots of grease and easy to check. BUT the bike will start in gear, just die if the clutch is let out in gear.. One member, the spring rusted away, the switch wasn't connecting

Air temp sensor, no, it won't kill the engine..