Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

tom_nuke

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Hello FZ6 community. I was doing a bunch of back logged maintenance today, which included valve clearance checks. While doing this I wanted to check the timing. I've had suspicions about this being a possible issue since my bike has been not running right for a while now.

Please check out these pictures:

Crank set to mark, checking cams - https://imgur.com/a/ulosgZt

Cams set to mark, checking crank - https://imgur.com/a/W0KbWTL

Crank set to mark (TDC cylinder 1), checking cams - https://imgur.com/a/5AIE2vL

To me, this appears to be just a bit out of spec.

Is there a way to make an adjustment? Or am I looking at a new timing chain?

Thanks!

Tom

**edit** Here are a few videos I took of the bike idling from different angles.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6Jobkcx9Fvb8bCPM6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6QTH8fQEuw7keMHq9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/oNNVPYQNob3VqbBk6
 
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TownsendsFJR1300

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As long as you had cam chain tension in the FRONT RUN (between the exhaust cam AND THE CRANKSHAFT), the chain and cams are right on the money.

A worn chain would stretch and your exhaust cam and intake cams would BOTH be farther CC.

It's hard to tell excess noise on the video's. Cam chain tensioners do wear out (but you have super low mileage) and would make excess noise.

What were the valve clearances? I suspect close if not on as their NOT due until 26,600 miles on the clock. You have half that..

Most importantly, how is the bike not running right?.
 

tom_nuke

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As long as you had cam chain tension in the FRONT RUN (between the exhaust cam AND THE CRANKSHAFT), the chain and cams are right on the money.

A worn chain would stretch and your exhaust cam and intake cams would BOTH be farther CC.

It's hard to tell excess noise on the video's. Cam chain tensioners do wear out (but you have super low mileage) and would make excess noise.

What were the valve clearances? I suspect close if not on as their NOT due until 26,600 miles on the clock. You have half that..

Most importantly, how is the bike not running right?.

I need to clarify a few things. Bike currently has 26,xxx miles on the clock. That video was older since the bike starting feeling "off" for a few years. Bike has a ton of vibration throughout the rev range, even my wife noticed it when riding pillion. It can be felt in the seat, pegs, bars. Slight loss of power, engine and exhaust sound a little different, engine runs off enough to throw off my normal shifting rhythm for smooth gear changes (hope that makes sense).

This my old thread:

https://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/53948-did-i-screw-up-my-engine.html

Been having the issue since then. I actually have a manual cam chain tensioner (APE) installed, was the first thing I replaced back when the issue first started. I've just ridden through the issue as I've had 2 shops and a few other inline 4 Yamaha riders (including a former FZ6 owner) test ride the bike. They all say it feel and rides great.I discounted the issue but in the back of my mind I knew something was still off.

A few troubleshooting things that I've done from that first thread:

  • Replace tensioner with manual APE version
  • Run Seafoam and Tecron through several tankfuls of gas
  • Change spark plugs and re-do spark plug boot tension clips (think that's the name)
  • Sync'd throttle bodies many, many, many times
  • Pulled and bench tested the injectors
  • Replaced the battery
  • Torque'd all engine mount bolts
  • Loosend and re-tighten exhaust mounts


You make a really good point about the chain stretching, everything would be off if that was the case. I only rotated clockwise, so the tension should have properly been on the front run of the chain. So with the cams being dead on, the only other thing left is that perhaps the chain jumped a tooth on the crank? I was VERY careful about keeping tension on the chain while removing and replacing the tensioner (plus this was happening previous to it's replacement).

Oh, and valve clearances all where within spec, so I assume that no damage has been done by running like this?

Thanks!
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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Everything you posted about the cam chain, pic's of the sprockets, etc, all that's fine.

I would suggest doing a "Leak Down" test( not a compression test). This will tell you health of the internals of your engine.

You'll need the tool and an air compressor.

This is the tool I use (less than $100):


Basically you lock up the cylinder to be tested at TDC, compression stroke. Hook the machine into the spark plug hole and plug in air (usually 100PSI) ANY leakage will show on the gauge. If you hear air coming out of the specific throttle body, you have leaking intake valve(s), same for the exhaust.

15% or more leakage is the general rule for the max amount allowed before you start digging into the engine.

**Your vibration tells me you have a bad cylinder not working. The leak down test would show if it's internal(major leakage), or if NO leakage, you probably have an ignition or fueling issue.

Start with the basic testing before throwing any more parts at it....


*Here's a pic of the gauge on an OLD Stihl chainsaw, 2 stroke I worked on:
 

tom_nuke

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Thanks, Scott. I will find a compression testing system and do the leak down test on each cylinder.

However, did I understand your response about the timing chain alignment and that it's OK? I want to clarify what I'm seeing, to me it seems off.

When the cams are lined up like this:

cam lined up.png

The crank is lined up like this:

crank not lined up.png

This is with the cam chain tensioner in place and turning clockwise. I could be screwing it up, but I think I'm doing all the steps correctly.

Thanks!

Tom
 
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TownsendsFJR1300

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Ok Tom, please just concentrate on the crankshaft marks, again turning clockwise ONLY. (It's hard to see on the puter and with old gasket material).

***START and ONLY WORK with the CRANK on the "T" at ALL TIMES***. Then the exhaust cam, then the intake cam. Take ALL slack out of the front run.

Get the crank lined dead nuts on with the "T" (TDC), then post pic's of the cams. If the cams were off a tooth, the marks wouldn't be close. The above pic of the cams, those are dead nuts on. You can (just for S&G's), move one cam one tooth off (with the chain) and see how BIG a difference there is..

Can the chain have stretched, absolutely. Short of worn sprockets (not usual), a new chain would put the marks dead on.

I don't care for the manual tensioner as it's too easy to not adjust correctly and stretch the chain prematurely.
 

tom_nuke

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Hi Scott,

Thanks, and I was thinking about the pics after I posted. I will take more pics and try to clearly mark the engine case in order for it show up better.

I'll report back later tonight.

Tom
 

tom_nuke

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Went back out tonight (probably shouldn't have) and took some better pics and made some annotations.

Cylinder 1 TDC, Crank at mark (with tape for effect):

crank lined up with markin tape.jpg

Cylinder 1 TDC, Cam pic 1 (dead on even with the top of the head):

crank lined up, showing cams at Cyl 1 TDC.jpg

Cylinder 1 TDC, Cam pic 2 (slightly higher than the top of the head to show markings):

crank lined up, showing cams at Cyl 1 TDC - Pic 2.jpg

Rotate crank 1 rotation, crank view:

crank rotated 1 time.jpg

Rotate crank 1 rotation, cam view (sorry, this one is a lil fuzzy)

crank rotated 1 time, cam view.jpg

What is the consensus? Am I chasing a ghost here? Is this within the ability of the bikes timing system to compensate for?

I also decided to try and loosen the tensioner on the chain to see if I could move the crank gear around on the chain. (knew I should've not gone back out tonight) This then resulted in taking the cams out as the cams teeth starting jumping on the chain and I was nervous about doing damaging trying to align everything without taking them out. After reassembling everything with what appeared to be dead on timing, it's still off (as much as it was previously) once all was tightened and tensioned.

I still have the leak down test to perform, will try to tackle that this week.

Thanks!

Tom
 

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Those cams are dead nuts on Tom.

Agreed about the 1mm difference, that is from chain stretch. It is very little (and definitely NOT causing the major vibrations).
Your deep into the engine now, to put in a new one (I probably wouldn't) will get everything even closer.

Also, (not sure if I mentioned it), a lazer temp gun aimed at each header pipe (right near the head) will also indicate which cylinder isn't operating correctly (with a low header temp). You can also drip a LITTLE drop or two of water on each header pipe (near the head) and see which DOES NOT evaporate the water as quickly as the others (help pin point which cylinder is dead or the issue)

But the cam and timing is good.
 
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tom_nuke

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Thanks, Scott. For giggles, if I was inclined to replace the timing chain (since I'm already ankle deep into the top end), the FSM recommends replacing the chain and gears as a set. With the low mileage I have, do you think that is still warranted?

Regarding the header pipe temp testing, I've done this in the past. The temps were within 10F-20F degrees, if I recall. What sort of deflection would warrant digging deeper?

I still have the engine apart, and don't plan on assembling anything until I have identified whatever is causing this issue. Would the previously mentioned leak-down test be a better indicator of an issue over the header temp test? Is there anything else I can/should be checking while I have the valve cover off?

Thanks for all the help!

Tom
 

TownsendsFJR1300

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Thanks, Scott. For giggles, if I was inclined to replace the timing chain (since I'm already ankle deep into the top end), the FSM recommends replacing the chain and gears as a set. With the low mileage I have, do you think that is still warranted? IMO, I wouldn't replace the gears. Both the gears and chain should last 50,000 miles. It certainly can't hurt, but with the low miles, the pic's you posted, they look fine. The CCT is weak link in the system (weakest link & the RED kill switch in the whole bike)

Regarding the header pipe temp testing, I've done this in the past. The temps were within 10F-20F degrees, if I recall. What sort of deflection would warrant digging deeper? This is just a poor mans way (as you've done it before) to see what cylinder isn't performing like the rest. The vibes you describe, it should be very obvious which cylinder(s) isn't working.

I still have the engine apart, and don't plan on assembling anything until I have identified whatever is causing this issue. Would the previously mentioned leak-down test be a better indicator of an issue over the header temp test? Is there anything else I can/should be checking while I have the valve cover off? Obviously check all the valve clearances. Did you have any that were too tight or too loose?

[/B]Also, with all you have apart, NOW is the time to do the leak down test as you right now have a lot more room to work.
Should say cylinder #3 be super low, and an intake valve is leaking, you'll hear it thru the air filter. If there's no appreciable leakage (15% is the general max amount), you know the top end of the engine is tight. Time to check electricals, fuel systems, etc..

Thanks for all the help!

Tom


Your welcome. (See the BOLDED ABOVE)

I kinda doubt with the low mileage, etc, the internals will be fine. An older bike, NOT used, fuel issues tend to be the biggest issue.

Did any of your spark plugs look much different (black/sooty) than the others?
 

FinalImpact

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Just catching up but post #5 needs the crank turned 360 to place the cams properly.

Your later pictures with the marks opposing each other are good. You'll never get it closer than that.

Can you throw up a ride along video?
Where is the power weakest?
The vibes; you could chase your tale on this; but given what you've done, and how it sounds and talk of horrid vibes, grab some used coil packs off fleebay and make sure the caps screw to the wire tight and throw the used coils in. I have 06 coils in the 08 as I couldnt stop the vibes.

Give it thought...
 

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Just catching up but post #5 needs the crank turned 360 to place the cams properly.

Your later pictures with the marks opposing each other are good. You'll never get it closer than that.

Can you throw up a ride along video?
Where is the power weakest?
The vibes; you could chase your tale on this; but given what you've done, and how it sounds and talk of horrid vibes, grab some used coil packs off fleebay and make sure the caps screw to the wire tight and throw the used coils in. I have 06 coils in the 08 as I couldnt stop the vibes.

Give it thought...

Here is another video I just found, from a few years back, but is a better example of the sound.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MGnA4sa5mULzVVpm7

Regarding vibes and power, it seems a little down at the lower end. Will still run like a raped ape in the upper RPMs, but feels like a Honda VTEC. Gutless until you hit the powerband. More gutless than before this change happened.

When I bough the bike with 9K on the clock, it was silky smooth except for that pesky small vibration at 4K to 6-7K. Out of the blue at around 12-13K miles, no wheelies, no loud bangs, no major changes to the bike or anything, just carrying around a 100lb pillion, a different vibration started. This new vibration is now constant (and follows the RPMs) throughout the RPM range and not tied to transmission or movement (ruling out the gearbox, chain, etc.). It's stronger than the harmonic vibration mentioned above.

It's driving me crazy because I bought the bike and it ran perfectly. Then all of the sudden it's not. It's frustrating as hell because it runs well enough that a person that doesn't have a history with this bike doesn't notice. I notice, my wife notices. Sometimes I think i'm crazy, but then she reassures me that it is indeed running off. She feels it on the pillion. I feel it in the pegs, bar and seat as well. It's not right...

I still have the top end opened up and will try to do the leak down test this weekend. Will report back

Thanks for ALL the support!!

Tom
 

FinalImpact

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That sounds a lot like a bike that ran a chunk of clutch disk through the crank and primary drive gears.

This is way worse but notice the primary noise is with the cranks speed. This noise is divided by the primary drive gear...
Mind you I still think you have a bad coil or coils. The S2 coil wires are not as robust.
https://youtu.be/PmbUzQpuUCc

Am way off base or is yours a super mellow version of this?

Look up the thread in the tech section A cure for vibrations blah blah blah. It's stickied to the top.
 

tom_nuke

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That sounds a lot like a bike that ran a chunk of clutch disk through the crank and primary drive gears.

This is way worse but notice the primary noise is with the cranks speed. This noise is divided by the primary drive gear...
Mind you I still think you have a bad coil or coils. The S2 coil wires are not as robust.
https://youtu.be/PmbUzQpuUCc

Am way off base or is yours a super mellow version of this?

Look up the thread in the tech section A cure for vibrations blah blah blah. It's stickied to the top.

That video sounds very much like my bike. My noise is similar, but to a lesser degree. This prompted me to inspect all of the clutch plates (back when all this started) and they were all intact (thankfully, doesn't look like a fun problem to have). I don't abuse the clutch, so I was relieved to find my clutch plates intact..

The coils are one area that I've not checked yet, is there a way to test the coils without throwing parts at it? Scott asked for pics of the plugs, I still need to take them and post, will tackle that tomorrow.

I have followed the cure for vibrations post and performed the procedure 2 times. It made a difference before this went to hell (with a TB sync), but made NO difference after the vibes increased and engine sounded different.

I know I'm throwing tons of info at you guys, but I did make a post 3-4 years ago when this all started. It got derailed and I was a little deflated as no one else who rode the bike seemed to think there was anything wrong (and I wasn't able to identify the issue with the help of you, fine folks of the forums here). But I noticed the change... I still knew something was off...

https://www.600riders.com/forum/garage-mechanical-help/53948-did-i-screw-up-my-engine.html

Tom
 

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Your welcome. (See the BOLDED ABOVE)

I kinda doubt with the low mileage, etc, the internals will be fine. An older bike, NOT used, fuel issues tend to be the biggest issue.

Did any of your spark plugs look much different (black/sooty) than the others?

Hi Scott,

I haven't forgotten this reply, I will get some pics of the plugs and post tomorrow. Long and short, the plugs appeared ok, but I need to take a better look. When I pulled them I had a laundry list of stuff to get done that day (front brakes, clutch cable, valve clearance check), so I may have not payed close attention to the plugs condition (nothing obvious jumped out, though).

Tom
 

FinalImpact

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If you recall that thread I felt mine get fixed and and then the vibes came back in 2000 mi or 200 mi. I finally gave up. Tried to find wire I could replace my own, but no luck.
Purposely sought out S1 coils as the bulk of the complaints are the S2 gang.

So if you haven't had this since new and someone blew up the clutch, there is a chance its been replaced. Yours being so mild says the damage was mild. Now add in an engine having these harmonic vibrations (firing order is not spot on), and this noise is exasperated.

That said a blown clutch disc is not a power robber.
For me, there was no discernable power loss from the coil wire issues. Just a numbing vibration that made the bike painful to ride home. One day I was so pissed I wanted to throw it in the ditch and walk home. Hence I had to solve the mystery. You know!!?

True vibes started at 4.4k and were bad to 7.5k or so. All else was pretty normal.
That said everyone said this normal I4 operation. BS! It is not!!!!
It wasn't this way when I grabbed it with 4k on the clock.

Bottom line is every time it bit me w those F'd vibes I fought back and proved I could change it by messing with the coil wires.

Don't give up on this Avenue! Some take one crack and it doesn't work and right it off. BUT if you know it wasnt this way and those wires changed it once, well they are still suspicious IMO!

Make sense?
Go own that SOB!
 
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tom_nuke

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If you recall that thread I felt mine get fixed and and then the vibes came back in 2000 mi or 200 mi. I finally gave up. Tried to find wire I could replace my own, but no luck.
Purposely sought out S1 coils as the bulk of the complaints are the S2 gang.

So if you haven't had this since new and someone blew up the clutch, there is a chance its been replaced. Yours being so mild says the damage was mild. Now add in an engine having these harmonic vibrations (firing order is not spot on), and this noise is exasperated.

That said a blown clutch disc is not a power robber.
For me, there was no discernable power loss from the coil wire issues. Just a numbing vibration that made the bike painful to ride home. One day I was so pissed I wanted to throw it in the ditch and walk home. Hence I had to solve the mystery. You know!!?

True vibes started at 4.4k and were bad to 7.5k or so. All else was pretty normal.
That said everyone said this normal I4 operation. BS! It is not!!!!
It wasn't this way when I grabbed it with 4k on the clock.

Bottom line is every time it bit me w those F'd vibes I fought back and proved I could change it by messing with the coil wires.

Don't give up on this Avenue! Some take one crack and it doesn't work and right it off. BUT if you know it wasnt this way and those wires changed it once, well they are still suspicious IMO!

Make sense?
Go own that SOB!

Thanks for the inspiration, i'm not letting this thing kick my ass!
 

tom_nuke

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Hi Scott,

I haven't forgotten this reply, I will get some pics of the plugs and post tomorrow. Long and short, the plugs appeared ok, but I need to take a better look. When I pulled them I had a laundry list of stuff to get done that day (front brakes, clutch cable, valve clearance check), so I may have not payed close attention to the plugs condition (nothing obvious jumped out, though).

Tom

After 8 trips (i'm not kidding) to various place today, I was finally able to do the leak down test. I needed a compression tester hose to make a DIY leak down tester. Well, it turns out that most rental units only support 14mm threaded plugs (that's right O'reilly parts guy, they are NOT all the same). Shame on my for not bringing one with me, I guess. So after all that, I was finally able to test.

20180728_163212.jpg

All cylinders tested good, always within 2-5 PSI of the source pressure (checking each at various pressure from 40/60/80100 PSI):

20180728_163307.jpg

Here are the plugs:

20180728_114138.jpg
20180728_114149.jpg
20180728_114156.jpg
20180728_114220.jpg

20180728_114247.jpg

Thanks!

Tom
 

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Glad the internals are tight, we can rule that out.

***Those plugs look bad and very worn, BUT #3, the electrode is GONE*** .

That large a gap, I doubt any spark is jumping (dead cylinder)

Now, besides replacing the plugs (try OEMs please) and make sure you have the correct heat range.

With #3 plug being as such, it's possible the coil is damaged from it sending spark with no where (ground is too far away) to go.

Check for spark with the new plugs in the wires, grounded to the engine BUT not installed in the holes..


Can you post the gaps of those plugs just for S&G's please. Gap should be .024-.028"
 
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