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  1. #1
    FinalImpact (OP)
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    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    @L3FTY
    Quote Originally Posted by L3FTY
    Hello FinalImpact,

    Im writing because i'm chasing down an issue on an 07 FZ6 and I very much respect your opinion and knowledge. Ive been a lurker for a while and have followed your posts with great satisfaction. I've been turning wrenches on bikes for about 15 years now.

    I have an 07 that was purchased new for my sister in 07 and cosmetically totaled in 09. I refreshed the bike, and it was totaled AGAIN when my father was driving it back up to her in college. I refreshed the bike again and it sat for about 7 years. I recently pulled it out of storage, got it running (it started on the first try after the basic restoration procedures), and I converted it to a naked-spec. 9,500 easy miles.

    The issue:
    I note fuel pooling on top of the intake valves after shutting the bike off (approx. 0.5cc over each valve, all cylinders). This came to my attention when the bike required more revolutions to start that I remember. It acted like it was flooding. If started on the button alone it would crank for about 5 seconds and slowly chug up to idle where it would clear up. With the throttle butterflies cracked slightly open it would start instantly and immediately idle correctly. The bike has no issues off idle, but the oil smells slightly different than I remember. I might be grasping at straws with the oil smell, though.

    Additionally, there was/is an intermittent misfire at idle when warm. Not sure if that miss is related. Im also noting a slight temperature mismatch on the headers with my IR gun. Number 4 consistently comes in lower than the rest, however the gold coating on that pipe has been worn off as melted plastic was abrasively removed from that pipe, so Im not sure if that is messing with the IR reading. The exhaust manifold clamps record temperatures closely between 1&4 and 2&3. I'll sync this weekend and see whats going on.

    Heres what ive done/verified:
    3-4 tanks of fuel system cleaner at full-bottle concentration
    TPS verified in spec with Diag. mode (miss related)
    Plugs gapped and replaced (miss related)
    Plug wires inspected and verified seated (miss related)
    Electrical connections (including coils and ECU) disassembled and connectors greased properly (miss related)
    Fuel pump screen cleaned and PR tested ~35psi.
    No rust/debris in tank (shocking after 7 years. The vents were pinched so that might have helped avoid moisture ingress)
    Injectors inspected, benched at 100% duty cycle, backflushed, swapped around, etc.

    **I went as far as to purchase an entire FZ6R throttle body ($20 on ebay, the injectors share the same part #) and put it on the bike to test the fuel pooling issue. Ran, but still pooled after shut off. For future reference, the throttle bodies from the FZ6R are the same outside dimensions, but the I.D.s are a slightly smaller diameter. Additionally, the pressure sensor is different but the TB retains the mounting locations for the normal FZ6 sensor, which mounts up fine. I noted that the TPS only read to 86% at full open, so theres something there too. The air metering assembly was identical. Final note, the bell crank is circular and not a cam profile like the FZ6. Im considering swapping the bell cranks and noting any differences in throttle response/comfort.

    My questions:
    Have you ever noticed a small quantity of fuel pooling on the intake valves after shut-down? Its not something i would expect people to look at all the time, but it doesent seem right to me. I know the batch-firing logic of the FZ is different and could conceivably cause latent fuel to vaporize then condense, but the fuel pools within 1 minute of shut down and it *appears* to be a material amount of fuel; I can saturate a large q-tip from each valve.

    I have a difficult time comprehending that all 4 (8 if you count the FZ6r) injectors are leaking. Just in case you were wondering, it is in fact fuel and not coolant/oil. I checked with my nose, fingers, and a lighter on a q-tip sample.

    I also have a difficult time comprehending an over-pressure situation in the fuel delivery as the PR is between the pumps check-valve and the fuel line.

    Ill be syncing the TB with my Carbtune pro this weekend in hopes of catching something not normal. Until then, do you have any thoughts on the issue?
    Hi and welcome to the 4'uhm Mr L3fty.

    I am sharing this here vs a PM as I think others will benefit from your methods and perhaps the outcome of this process.

    That said I also find it unlikely 8 different injectors leak so we are on the same page. What I want to question is the details of your test method. How does one get to the intake valves to schwab fuel away?

    At best, there is no quick access. Are you possibly referring to the Throttle Body (TB) Butterfly plates? Brass color and easily accessible with the upper air box lid removed?

    Please elaborate how and where you are finding this fuel. Everything you wrote about it blubbering upon startup leans towards the excessive fuel being present thus you have my interest.

    Regards,
    F/I
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  3. #2
    Junior Member L3FTY's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Great question! Theres a couple of ways/stages: The easiest is to remove the airbox cover, hold the throttle open (with the bike off ), and shine a light down the velocity stack. If the rotating assembly stops with one of the cylinders in the middle of the intake stroke, you'll even catch a glimpse at the top of the piston (for what its worth). Further removing intake parts will yield a closer look at the stems and back sides of the intake valves. Pulling the entire throttle body will get you closest. I've done all 3 methods and verified that there is, in fact, fuel sitting on top of the closed intake valves. As another data point, running and then shutting down the engine with the airbox off will leave a nice cloud of vapor in the intact tract, which I presume is fuel vaporizing against the hot head/valve. Once this vapor clears, liquid fuel is visible. Enough to saturate a q-tip in around each valve.

    Thank you very much for the thread! I'm looking forward to the Forum's insight and suggestions, and contributing what i can. I have to think this condition is abnormal. I'll snap some pics of the conidition and magnitude when i sync the TBs tomorrow.

    EDIT: The visual method i used to verify the condition was the eerie greenish/yellow reflection that fuel leaves when look at with a powerful light. The physical method i used to take the sample was a long "Ramrodz" gun cleaning swab. Its basically a long q-tip on steroids designed to run through a .22cal barrel.
    Last edited by L3FTY; 04-11-2019 at 11:36 AM.

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  5. #3
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    That is concise. OK, the standing fuel cloud is not normal but if the cam timing is off could be an clue about another problem. Lets forgo looking close at the bike for a moment and do a quick test.

    Take your spare injector set, either 1 at a time or all 4 on the rail and fill a hose with water (safe) or Fuel (not so safe), and position the hose so gravity feeds the injectors.

    Position 4 cups below each injector.

    Set your air compressor regulator to 35/40 PSI and connect it to the hose.

    ** MIND YOU - IF THESE INJECTORS LEAK BAD AND YOU USE FUEL** You just made a bomb! Do a dry run with water or paint thinner. Something less explosive!!!

    If these injectors leak any noticeable amount in 5 minutes, they leak and you proved it. It is no longer chance it is fact.

    Does that seem reasonable? Be safe!!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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    Junior Member L3FTY's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Thank you for the suggestion. I'll clean, dry, and then pressurize the spare TB over paper to look for evidence of leakage.

    I'll be able to better tell if the cam timing is off when i hook up the vacuum gauges, but in my experience even 1* off will make itself very obvious, and this bike runs well across the powerband. The intake runners look clean and the vacuum pulses *feel* smooth across the cylinders when opening the throttle (subjective).

    Something i was thinking about just now (thinking out loud here): If something is causing the ECU to overfuel to this degree, i dont think the cat could compensate. The exhaust doesent smell rich by any means but the fuel mileage on the bike is below what i expected (<120 miles to f-light). I don't have an o-scope to check injector pulse-width and but i've reset the ECU a couple of times now. Would an open in the O2 sensor circuit trigger a fault code?

    Theres no smoke out of the exhaust when running, but i DID notice a white/gray puff on start up this morning, which i attribute to the quantity of fuel hanging out on top of the valves. Anywho, i'll report back on the TB leakdown test asap

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  9. #5
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    You should be in the 180 220mi range if all stock. My fuel controller at 13.0:1 AFR and 48t rear sprocket put mine in the 180 mi range IIRC.

    The spray above the TB could also be intake valve leaning but obviously they wouldn't retain fuel if that were the case.

    Please confirm there is no Fuel Controller on this!
    PS - good job detailing everything. It makes this so much easier.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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    Junior Member L3FTY's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Thanks for the data; its very helpful! If i had enough posts to edit my signature it would be:

    2007 FZ6 - 9,500mi - Stock - Naked conversion - Renthal Bars - Fender Eliminator

    At some point the bike had a scorpio alarm and lojack on it. I think the lojack is still there but i remember removing the alarm 7 years ago. I'll go inspect the harness and make sure any of the scotch-lock "nicks" in the wires dont have any visible issues. I dont think either of those devices get between the ECU and the FI harness, but i could be wrong. Will inspect at next opportunity.

    Additionally, if anyone is around the Dallas, Texas area and would allow me to borrow their fuel tank for 15 minutes to rule-out my pump assembly, i'll sync your throttle bodies

    **Edit** in response to the vapor-in-intake, its more of a whispy smoke than a viscous cloud and its in all holes. Its not bellowing out of the throttle bodies by any means; its just hanging around in there when i open the butterflies and look. I can blow it out similar to a smoking gun barrel. My intuition tells me its a few drops of boiling fuel after the bike is shut off, and i want to say i've seen this before on various healthy engines. Either way, its a data point for this case and i'll stay cognizant of it. I'm going to try to come back with pictures of my next diagnostics.
    Last edited by L3FTY; 04-11-2019 at 01:47 PM.

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  12. #7
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Free TB sync, just lend me your tank! haha!

    Recap; the vapor mist is when off? Not at idle or when opened up?

    You must have the OEM manual, yes? IDR it specifying injector leak rate or pump leak rate so that is a best guess that they should hold nearly leak free for 5min.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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    Junior Member L3FTY's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Affirmative; the fog is after shut down. I do not recall the service manual giving a leakdown rate for the FI system either. Just a go/no-go on fuel pressure.

    I ran you test last night and did some more diagnostic detective work. I'll follow up in detail with photos but in summary, the FZ6R throttle body did not leak when charged wet to 30, 35, and 40psi, both static and with injectors energized (in case the pintles weren't re-seating). i'm going to call the fuel pump in for questioning and i'll explain shortly.

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    Junior Member L3FTY's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Here's the unit, after pulling out of storage and conversion to n-spec
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-pcfae7i-jpg

    This is down one of the v-stacks, approx 1 hour after a 30-min ride. I don't know if you can see the fuel, playing with the brightness on your monitor may help. Its a bluish-green. Its identical across all 3 closed holes.
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-pxjlggx-jpg

    Here's the gas in the tank when looked at with the same powerful LED light. The color is very similar to what is seen in the intakes, but clear to the naked eye.
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-gnp199i-jpg

    Here's the offending liquid, sampled from the intake on a q-tip
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-6wmpiio-jpg

    And in case you were wondering if oil or coolant. I know it looks yellow, but i did some "exhaustive" burn testing of the samples and concluded it does NOT smell like the burning oil. It actually smells like bad gas (varnish), which gives creedence to the flash-off vapor theory.
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-mjv28my-jpg

    Here's 5 seconds after shut down at operating temp. I wasnt about to light a match here just in case. Note that this is only present when the butterflies are opened.
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-t1cdbh7-jpg

    And here's the leakdown test of the FZR6 throttle bodies that produced the same condition when installed. I duty-cycled these while pressurized to check the pintles and no visible leakage. At least not in the quantities observed around the valves. I use a bicycle pump because i have much better control over it. **EDIT** This gauge has since been tested and is innacurate. This gauge registers approximately 10psi below indicated. Actual pressure for this test would be approx 50psi
    1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?-g8qx816-jpg

    Here's my current thoughts
    1) It would be a hell of a coincidence to have all 8 valve guides/seals go bad and leak at the same rate. When the liquid is removed, it doesent come back without running the engine again. I removed power from the fuel pump and cranked the engine a fair amount- No liquid pooling.
    2) the condition is on all 4 holes and appears seconds after shut-down at operating temp

    Summary: I want to test the fuel pump for 35psi. If there's an under-pressure situation, the fuel may not be atomizing and instead washing down the sides of the throttle bodes. When the engine is shut off, the injectors should slam shut, with the last atomized fuel charges getting drawn into the engine as the rpms go from 1,300 to 0.0. A sloppy spray pattern would paint the inside of the TBs and intake manifolds with liquid fuel, which could run down to the valves and get flashed-off when the violence that is intake turbulence comes to an end. The bike sat for 7 years and is almost 12 years old; we all know fuel pumps take a big hit from sitting. This theory passes Occam's razor, as injectors or valves would require assuming that all 4 cylinders are in a failure mode of equal magnitude. I'm still not ruling out a fuel control issue or synchronization issue, but those are a few tests away. As an aside, i cleaned every connector i could feasibly access in the wiring harness and found no disconcerting evidence .
    Last edited by L3FTY; 04-14-2019 at 04:03 PM.

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  16. #10
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: 1st unofficial post from L3FTY, after storage, injectors leaking?

    Ok good to know the R parts don't leak at 40PSI. Did they hold for 5min? And it sounds like you applied 12v. What did the pattern look like and what were you spraying?

    You pointed out that you read several of my posts. The second most common failure mode is the pressure regulator getting debris in it and limiting pressure to the fuel rail. This usually results in hard starts and limited RPM under load but yours is fine.

    As for the mist above the TB after shutdown, I suspect this is common but I have never personally looked for it.
    That said and following up on what you stated, during idle we have batch injectors shooting fuel into spaces where it can't leave as the intake valve is closed. So during the shutdown process ignition and fuel are cut but we have atomized fuel between the throttle blades and the valves.

    Although I have never looked, it stands to reason that the atomized fuel condenses back to a solid and runs down the intake runner to lay on the valve until it evaporates.

    To me if this were excessive, when fired off say 20" after shutdown, it would rinse oil from the cylinder and piston and produce a blue puff upon startup.

    My thought is this:
    Thoroughly inspect your ignition system.
    Run more fuel intake cleaner through it.
    Connected a high quality, high accuracy pressure gauge to your fuel rail to monitor and confirm it maintains 36.5psi at idle and at least that to 5k or so. But honestly the pump is good for 75psi so I think **it should** maintain 36.5 all the way to 13.5k.... clearly I've never checked it.

    But get a good gauge and carry a fire extinguisher if you ride with said gauge attached. A leak could ruin your life so be super smart with regards to risk vs reward as the risk is pretty damned high!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

 

 
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