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  1. #1
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Exclamation Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Hello FZ6 community. I was doing a bunch of back logged maintenance today, which included valve clearance checks. While doing this I wanted to check the timing. I've had suspicions about this being a possible issue since my bike has been not running right for a while now.

    Please check out these pictures:

    Crank set to mark, checking cams - https://imgur.com/a/ulosgZt

    Cams set to mark, checking crank - https://imgur.com/a/W0KbWTL

    Crank set to mark (TDC cylinder 1), checking cams - https://imgur.com/a/5AIE2vL

    To me, this appears to be just a bit out of spec.

    Is there a way to make an adjustment? Or am I looking at a new timing chain?

    Thanks!

    Tom

    **edit** Here are a few videos I took of the bike idling from different angles.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/6Jobkcx9Fvb8bCPM6

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/6QTH8fQEuw7keMHq9

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/oNNVPYQNob3VqbBk6
    Last edited by tom_nuke; 07-21-2018 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #2
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    As long as you had cam chain tension in the FRONT RUN (between the exhaust cam AND THE CRANKSHAFT), the chain and cams are right on the money.

    A worn chain would stretch and your exhaust cam and intake cams would BOTH be farther CC.

    It's hard to tell excess noise on the video's. Cam chain tensioners do wear out (but you have super low mileage) and would make excess noise.

    What were the valve clearances? I suspect close if not on as their NOT due until 26,600 miles on the clock. You have half that..

    Most importantly, how is the bike not running right?.
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

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  4. #3
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by TownsendsFJR1300 View Post
    As long as you had cam chain tension in the FRONT RUN (between the exhaust cam AND THE CRANKSHAFT), the chain and cams are right on the money.

    A worn chain would stretch and your exhaust cam and intake cams would BOTH be farther CC.

    It's hard to tell excess noise on the video's. Cam chain tensioners do wear out (but you have super low mileage) and would make excess noise.

    What were the valve clearances? I suspect close if not on as their NOT due until 26,600 miles on the clock. You have half that..

    Most importantly, how is the bike not running right?.
    I need to clarify a few things. Bike currently has 26,xxx miles on the clock. That video was older since the bike starting feeling "off" for a few years. Bike has a ton of vibration throughout the rev range, even my wife noticed it when riding pillion. It can be felt in the seat, pegs, bars. Slight loss of power, engine and exhaust sound a little different, engine runs off enough to throw off my normal shifting rhythm for smooth gear changes (hope that makes sense).

    This my old thread:

    https://www.600riders.com/forum/gara...my-engine.html

    Been having the issue since then. I actually have a manual cam chain tensioner (APE) installed, was the first thing I replaced back when the issue first started. I've just ridden through the issue as I've had 2 shops and a few other inline 4 Yamaha riders (including a former FZ6 owner) test ride the bike. They all say it feel and rides great.I discounted the issue but in the back of my mind I knew something was still off.

    A few troubleshooting things that I've done from that first thread:

    • Replace tensioner with manual APE version
    • Run Seafoam and Tecron through several tankfuls of gas
    • Change spark plugs and re-do spark plug boot tension clips (think that's the name)
    • Sync'd throttle bodies many, many, many times
    • Pulled and bench tested the injectors
    • Replaced the battery
    • Torque'd all engine mount bolts
    • Loosend and re-tighten exhaust mounts



    You make a really good point about the chain stretching, everything would be off if that was the case. I only rotated clockwise, so the tension should have properly been on the front run of the chain. So with the cams being dead on, the only other thing left is that perhaps the chain jumped a tooth on the crank? I was VERY careful about keeping tension on the chain while removing and replacing the tensioner (plus this was happening previous to it's replacement).

    Oh, and valve clearances all where within spec, so I assume that no damage has been done by running like this?

    Thanks!

  5. #4
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Everything you posted about the cam chain, pic's of the sprockets, etc, all that's fine.

    I would suggest doing a "Leak Down" test( not a compression test). This will tell you health of the internals of your engine.

    You'll need the tool and an air compressor.

    This is the tool I use (less than $100):


    Basically you lock up the cylinder to be tested at TDC, compression stroke. Hook the machine into the spark plug hole and plug in air (usually 100PSI) ANY leakage will show on the gauge. If you hear air coming out of the specific throttle body, you have leaking intake valve(s), same for the exhaust.

    15% or more leakage is the general rule for the max amount allowed before you start digging into the engine.

    **Your vibration tells me you have a bad cylinder not working. The leak down test would show if it's internal(major leakage), or if NO leakage, you probably have an ignition or fueling issue.

    Start with the basic testing before throwing any more parts at it....


    *Here's a pic of the gauge on an OLD Stihl chainsaw, 2 stroke I worked on:
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

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  7. #5
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Thanks, Scott. I will find a compression testing system and do the leak down test on each cylinder.

    However, did I understand your response about the timing chain alignment and that it's OK? I want to clarify what I'm seeing, to me it seems off.

    When the cams are lined up like this:

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-cam-lined-up-png

    The crank is lined up like this:

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-crank-not-lined-up-png

    This is with the cam chain tensioner in place and turning clockwise. I could be screwing it up, but I think I'm doing all the steps correctly.

    Thanks!

    Tom
    Last edited by tom_nuke; 07-22-2018 at 02:26 PM.

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  9. #6
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Ok Tom, please just concentrate on the crankshaft marks, again turning clockwise ONLY. (It's hard to see on the puter and with old gasket material).

    ***START and ONLY WORK with the CRANK on the "T" at ALL TIMES***. Then the exhaust cam, then the intake cam. Take ALL slack out of the front run.

    Get the crank lined dead nuts on with the "T" (TDC), then post pic's of the cams. If the cams were off a tooth, the marks wouldn't be close. The above pic of the cams, those are dead nuts on. You can (just for S&G's), move one cam one tooth off (with the chain) and see how BIG a difference there is..

    Can the chain have stretched, absolutely. Short of worn sprockets (not usual), a new chain would put the marks dead on.

    I don't care for the manual tensioner as it's too easy to not adjust correctly and stretch the chain prematurely.
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

  10. #7
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Hi Scott,

    Thanks, and I was thinking about the pics after I posted. I will take more pics and try to clearly mark the engine case in order for it show up better.

    I'll report back later tonight.

    Tom

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    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Went back out tonight (probably shouldn't have) and took some better pics and made some annotations.

    Cylinder 1 TDC, Crank at mark (with tape for effect):

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-crank-lined-up-markin-tape-jpg

    Cylinder 1 TDC, Cam pic 1 (dead on even with the top of the head):

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-crank-lined-up-showing-cams-cyl-1-tdc-jpg

    Cylinder 1 TDC, Cam pic 2 (slightly higher than the top of the head to show markings):

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-crank-lined-up-showing-cams-cyl-1-tdc-pic-2-jpg

    Rotate crank 1 rotation, crank view:

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-crank-rotated-1-time-jpg

    Rotate crank 1 rotation, cam view (sorry, this one is a lil fuzzy)

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-crank-rotated-1-time-cam-view-jpg

    What is the consensus? Am I chasing a ghost here? Is this within the ability of the bikes timing system to compensate for?

    I also decided to try and loosen the tensioner on the chain to see if I could move the crank gear around on the chain. (knew I should've not gone back out tonight) This then resulted in taking the cams out as the cams teeth starting jumping on the chain and I was nervous about doing damaging trying to align everything without taking them out. After reassembling everything with what appeared to be dead on timing, it's still off (as much as it was previously) once all was tightened and tensioned.

    I still have the leak down test to perform, will try to tackle that this week.

    Thanks!

    Tom

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    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Those cams are dead nuts on Tom.

    Agreed about the 1mm difference, that is from chain stretch. It is very little (and definitely NOT causing the major vibrations).
    Your deep into the engine now, to put in a new one (I probably wouldn't) will get everything even closer.

    Also, (not sure if I mentioned it), a lazer temp gun aimed at each header pipe (right near the head) will also indicate which cylinder isn't operating correctly (with a low header temp). You can also drip a LITTLE drop or two of water on each header pipe (near the head) and see which DOES NOT evaporate the water as quickly as the others (help pin point which cylinder is dead or the issue)

    But the cam and timing is good.
    Last edited by TownsendsFJR1300; 07-23-2018 at 05:17 AM.
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

  14. #10
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Thanks, Scott. For giggles, if I was inclined to replace the timing chain (since I'm already ankle deep into the top end), the FSM recommends replacing the chain and gears as a set. With the low mileage I have, do you think that is still warranted?

    Regarding the header pipe temp testing, I've done this in the past. The temps were within 10F-20F degrees, if I recall. What sort of deflection would warrant digging deeper?

    I still have the engine apart, and don't plan on assembling anything until I have identified whatever is causing this issue. Would the previously mentioned leak-down test be a better indicator of an issue over the header temp test? Is there anything else I can/should be checking while I have the valve cover off?

    Thanks for all the help!

    Tom

 

 
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