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  1. #21
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by TownsendsFJR1300 View Post
    Glad the internals are tight, we can rule that out.

    ***Those plugs look bad and very worn, BUT #3, the electrode is GONE*** .

    That large a gap, I doubt any spark is jumping (dead cylinder)

    Now, besides replacing the plugs (try OEMs please) and make sure you have the correct heat range.

    With #3 plug being as such, it's possible the coil is damaged from it sending spark with no where (ground is too far away) to go.

    Check for spark with the new plugs in the wires, grounded to the engine BUT not installed in the holes..


    Can you post the gaps of those plugs just for S&G's please. Gap should be .024-.028"
    Hi Scott,

    I'll post some gaps when I get the chance to head out to the garage today. Those were NGK CR9EIX plugs installed about 12K miles ago.

    What is recommended these days? It looks like I have Nickel, Platinum and Iridium options available.

    Thanks,

    Tom

  2. #22
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    You have to wonder how that happened!!
    Can you zoom in and verify all the porcelain is there?
    Hopefully whatever left just blew harmlessly out the exhaust.

    This should make that little I4 much happier with 4 fresh plugs!

    Bike seems happy with the single ground strap nickle plugs. CR9E no K and their a lot easier to gap too. Certainly never had a failure like that.
    Last edited by FinalImpact; 07-29-2018 at 08:53 AM.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  4. #23
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    You have to wonder how that happened!!
    Can you zoom in and verify all the porcelain is there?
    Hopefully whatever left just blew harmlessly out the exhaust.

    This should make that little I4 much happier with 4 fresh plugs!

    Bike seems happy with the single ground strap nickle plugs. CR9E no K and their a lot easier to gap too. Certainly never had a failure like that.
    If you look at the last pic with all 4 plugs, you can see the electrode is still there, but it appears the electrode is shorter / missing the end bit, is that the ceramic piece you're referring to?

    I seem to recall a conversation on the forums about spark plugs, the single strap argument was why I went for the Iridium plugs (and I could find them pretty easy locally). With around 12K on them maybe they've exceeded their serviceable life?

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  6. #24
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom_nuke View Post
    Hi Scott,

    I'll post some gaps when I get the chance to head out to the garage today. Those were NGK CR9EIX plugs installed about 12K miles ago.

    What is recommended these days? It looks like I have Nickel, Platinum and Iridium options available.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    Yea, those WERE Iridium's. Their SUPPOSED to last almost indefinitely, 12k miles, WOW. That cylinder definitely is NOT HITTING(WORKING).
    Hopefully it didn't take out a coil

    The stock plugs are the TWO STRAP GROUND, NGKs, CR9EK


    * I installed Iridium's probably 12,000 miles ago, no issues, at the time, my original plugs had about 10K miles on them and looked brand new. Next change, OEM plugs are going back in. I did find the iridiums did wear as the gap opened (gap opens as ALL plugs wear). They were checked before they went in and later found the gaps to be slightly larger (NOTHING like yours).

    Randy or Cliff, that one plug (at least), will that cook a coil with literally NO ground (electrode GONE!)?


    IME, with two grounds, you'll get half the wear as two grounds share the wear.

    As long as you have spark (tested as noted earlier with plugs in wires, grounded to the block), new plugs are very, very likely your issue.

    I do remember reading that iridium plugs can ONLY be checked with a "Wire feeler Gauge" or you'll damage the precious metal and plugs are junk. Adjustment is also made ONLY on the ground strap. That may be what happened as I've never seen that before.


    Do you have the owners manual? The stock plugs, how to adjust / check, etc is in there. If not, PM me with the year bike and an e-mail address and I'll send you the PDF..


    Last edited by TownsendsFJR1300; 07-29-2018 at 10:50 AM.
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

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  8. #25
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by TownsendsFJR1300 View Post
    Yea, those WERE Iridium's. Their SUPPOSED to last almost indefinitely, 12k miles, WOW. That cylinder definitely is NOT HITTING(WORKING).
    Hopefully it didn't take out a coil

    The stock plugs are the TWO STRAP GROUND, NGKs, CR9EK


    * I installed Iridium's probably 12,000 miles ago, no issues, at the time, my original plugs had about 10K miles on them and looked brand new. Next change, OEM plugs are going back in. I did find the iridiums did wear as the gap opened (gap opens as ALL plugs wear). They were checked before they went in and later found the gaps to be slightly larger (NOTHING like yours).

    Randy or Cliff, that one plug (at least), will that cook a coil with literally NO ground (electrode GONE!)?


    IME, with two grounds, you'll get half the wear as two grounds share the wear.

    As long as you have spark (tested as noted earlier with plugs in wires, grounded to the block), new plugs are very, very likely your issue.

    I do remember reading that iridium plugs can ONLY be checked with a "Wire feeler Gauge" or you'll damage the precious metal and plugs are junk. Adjustment is also made ONLY on the ground strap. That may be what happened as I've never seen that before.


    Do you have the owners manual? The stock plugs, how to adjust / check, etc is in there. If not, PM me with the year bike and an e-mail address and I'll send you the PDF..



    Hi Scott,

    The original pics may be making these plugs look worse than they actually are. Let me upload some better pics..

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180729_142730-jpg

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180729_142755-jpg

    Here are gaps as they currently sit (had to carefully use a feeler gauge, can't find my regular wire gauge):

    .031 / .032 / .034 / .033

    Are these worth trying to re-gap and check how they fire? Or just replace?

    I still have the bike apart, haven't decided if I want to replace the timing chain yet.

    Is there a way to test the coils with a multi-meter?

    I do have the FSM, I'll be looking through it as well.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    Last edited by tom_nuke; 07-29-2018 at 11:39 AM.

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  10. #26
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom_nuke View Post
    Hi Scott,

    The original pics may be making these plugs look worse than they actually are. Let me upload some better pics..

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180729_142730-jpg

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180729_142755-jpg

    Here are gaps as they currently sit (had to carefully use a feeler gauge, can't find my regular wire gauge):

    .031 / .032 / .034 / .033

    Are these worth trying to re-gap and check how they fire? Or just replace?

    I still have the bike apart, haven't decided if I want to replace the timing chain yet.

    Is there a way to test the coils with a multi-meter?

    I do have the FSM, I'll be looking through it as well.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    Scratch the coils, I found how to test them in the FSM. They checked out fine.

  11. #27
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    They still look bad and are extremely worn (up to .010" OVER) just by the "worn gap" vs what they should be.

    You now know the internal physical health of the mechanicals are good. We know the plugs are worn badly and way out of spec.

    Plugs are cheap and the OEMs can be ordered at any auto parts store (fairly cheap actually).

    That little bit of chain stretch would not cause nearly as crappy running as just ONE of those spark plugs.


    *As a side note, I have a Yamaha F150 HP outboard engine, low hours (in-line 4, 4 valves per cylinder, approx 2300cc). I had a running issue years ago, WOT should run approx. 6,000 RPMs. The engine would run to 4800 and roughly 5,500. Thinking it was the filters or old fuel I spoke with the local marina. With less than 150 hours on the engine, the spark plugs looked brand new, gap well within spec. They said the plugs should have been changed a LONG time ago. WTH, bought some plugs & installed them. That was it! Engine was running back to 6,000 WOT!! Friggin spark plugs!

    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

  12. #28
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by TownsendsFJR1300 View Post
    They still look bad and are extremely worn (up to .010" OVER) just by the "worn gap" vs what they should be.

    You now know the internal physical health of the mechanicals are good. We know the plugs are worn badly and way out of spec.

    Plugs are cheap and the OEMs can be ordered at any auto parts store (fairly cheap actually).

    That little bit of chain stretch would not cause nearly as crappy running as just ONE of those spark plugs.


    *As a side note, I have a Yamaha F150 HP outboard engine, low hours (in-line 4, 4 valves per cylinder, approx 2300cc). I had a running issue years ago, WOT should run approx. 6,000 RPMs. The engine would run to 4800 and roughly 5,500. Thinking it was the filters or old fuel I spoke with the local marina. With less than 150 hours on the engine, the spark plugs looked brand new, gap well within spec. They said the plugs should have been changed a LONG time ago. WTH, bought some plugs & installed them. That was it! Engine was running back to 6,000 WOT!! Friggin spark plugs!

    So what is your opinion on the single strap / dual strap argument?

  13. #29
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom_nuke View Post
    So what is your opinion on the single strap / dual strap argument?
    Besides being OEM,

    (1)IME, with two grounds, you'll get half the wear as two grounds share the wear.

    (2) Iridium's do NOT last forever (as posted, I've measured wear-larger gap) with less miles than the stock plugs in your case.

    (3) As your plugs show, they wore out MANY miles ago, with gaps NOW, that bike shouldn't even run...

    (4) Precious metal plugs (Iridiums) are VERY easy to damage. Just checking them WITHOUT a "wire type" feeler gauge can damage them.

    (5) If you look at the ground straps on the stock plugs, the GROUNDS have a curve that follows the electrode- Now you have TWO of those. To check the gap on those, you HAVE to use a wire gauge as the space in the middle IS CURVED. They are not easily damaged simply by using a wrong feeler gauge.


    In your case, ANY NEW spark plugs will likely solve your issue..

    Some interesting reading: https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9689
    Last edited by TownsendsFJR1300; 07-30-2018 at 08:02 AM.
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

  14. #30
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    My beef w the side strap ground is the gap changes as the side of the electrode wears. The single strap fires off the end and simply wears and rounds off but the gap changes very little over time.

    I've been running CR10E's one heat range cooler for 4 years or so. The technology works reliably.
    Do note bike has a AFR data logger and fuel controller running a map at ~13.0:1, plus ignition advance, exhaust opened up and all that.

    But ya, those plugs should last a long time.

    Getting them all close for easy reference viewing.
    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-img_20150908_155023_309c-jpg
    After 2000 mi with above mentioned mods. Bike is running pretty clean and Hot!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

 

 
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