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  1. #11
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom_nuke View Post
    Thanks, Scott. For giggles, if I was inclined to replace the timing chain (since I'm already ankle deep into the top end), the FSM recommends replacing the chain and gears as a set. With the low mileage I have, do you think that is still warranted? IMO, I wouldn't replace the gears. Both the gears and chain should last 50,000 miles. It certainly can't hurt, but with the low miles, the pic's you posted, they look fine. The CCT is weak link in the system (weakest link & the RED kill switch in the whole bike)

    Regarding the header pipe temp testing, I've done this in the past. The temps were within 10F-20F degrees, if I recall. What sort of deflection would warrant digging deeper? This is just a poor mans way (as you've done it before) to see what cylinder isn't performing like the rest. The vibes you describe, it should be very obvious which cylinder(s) isn't working.

    I still have the engine apart, and don't plan on assembling anything until I have identified whatever is causing this issue. Would the previously mentioned leak-down test be a better indicator of an issue over the header temp test? Is there anything else I can/should be checking while I have the valve cover off? [B]Obviously check all the valve clearances. Did you have any that were too tight or too loose?

    [/B]Also, with all you have apart, NOW is the time to do the leak down test as you right now have a lot more room to work.
    Should say cylinder #3 be super low, and an intake valve is leaking, you'll hear it thru the air filter. If there's no appreciable leakage (15% is the general max amount), you know the top end of the engine is tight. Time to check electricals, fuel systems, etc..

    Thanks for all the help!

    Tom
    Your welcome. (See the BOLDED ABOVE)

    I kinda doubt with the low mileage, etc, the internals will be fine. An older bike, NOT used, fuel issues tend to be the biggest issue.

    Did any of your spark plugs look much different (black/sooty) than the others?
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

  2. #12
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Just catching up but post #5 needs the crank turned 360 to place the cams properly.

    Your later pictures with the marks opposing each other are good. You'll never get it closer than that.

    Can you throw up a ride along video?
    Where is the power weakest?
    The vibes; you could chase your tale on this; but given what you've done, and how it sounds and talk of horrid vibes, grab some used coil packs off fleebay and make sure the caps screw to the wire tight and throw the used coils in. I have 06 coils in the 08 as I couldnt stop the vibes.

    Give it thought...
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

  3. #13
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    Just catching up but post #5 needs the crank turned 360 to place the cams properly.

    Your later pictures with the marks opposing each other are good. You'll never get it closer than that.

    Can you throw up a ride along video?
    Where is the power weakest?
    The vibes; you could chase your tale on this; but given what you've done, and how it sounds and talk of horrid vibes, grab some used coil packs off fleebay and make sure the caps screw to the wire tight and throw the used coils in. I have 06 coils in the 08 as I couldnt stop the vibes.

    Give it thought...
    Here is another video I just found, from a few years back, but is a better example of the sound.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/MGnA4sa5mULzVVpm7

    Regarding vibes and power, it seems a little down at the lower end. Will still run like a raped ape in the upper RPMs, but feels like a Honda VTEC. Gutless until you hit the powerband. More gutless than before this change happened.

    When I bough the bike with 9K on the clock, it was silky smooth except for that pesky small vibration at 4K to 6-7K. Out of the blue at around 12-13K miles, no wheelies, no loud bangs, no major changes to the bike or anything, just carrying around a 100lb pillion, a different vibration started. This new vibration is now constant (and follows the RPMs) throughout the RPM range and not tied to transmission or movement (ruling out the gearbox, chain, etc.). It's stronger than the harmonic vibration mentioned above.

    It's driving me crazy because I bought the bike and it ran perfectly. Then all of the sudden it's not. It's frustrating as hell because it runs well enough that a person that doesn't have a history with this bike doesn't notice. I notice, my wife notices. Sometimes I think i'm crazy, but then she reassures me that it is indeed running off. She feels it on the pillion. I feel it in the pegs, bar and seat as well. It's not right...

    I still have the top end opened up and will try to do the leak down test this weekend. Will report back

    Thanks for ALL the support!!

    Tom

  4. #14
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    That sounds a lot like a bike that ran a chunk of clutch disk through the crank and primary drive gears.

    This is way worse but notice the primary noise is with the cranks speed. This noise is divided by the primary drive gear...
    Mind you I still think you have a bad coil or coils. The S2 coil wires are not as robust.
    https://youtu.be/PmbUzQpuUCc

    Am way off base or is yours a super mellow version of this?

    Look up the thread in the tech section A cure for vibrations blah blah blah. It's stickied to the top.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

  5. #15
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    That sounds a lot like a bike that ran a chunk of clutch disk through the crank and primary drive gears.

    This is way worse but notice the primary noise is with the cranks speed. This noise is divided by the primary drive gear...
    Mind you I still think you have a bad coil or coils. The S2 coil wires are not as robust.
    https://youtu.be/PmbUzQpuUCc

    Am way off base or is yours a super mellow version of this?

    Look up the thread in the tech section A cure for vibrations blah blah blah. It's stickied to the top.
    That video sounds very much like my bike. My noise is similar, but to a lesser degree. This prompted me to inspect all of the clutch plates (back when all this started) and they were all intact (thankfully, doesn't look like a fun problem to have). I don't abuse the clutch, so I was relieved to find my clutch plates intact..

    The coils are one area that I've not checked yet, is there a way to test the coils without throwing parts at it? Scott asked for pics of the plugs, I still need to take them and post, will tackle that tomorrow.

    I have followed the cure for vibrations post and performed the procedure 2 times. It made a difference before this went to hell (with a TB sync), but made NO difference after the vibes increased and engine sounded different.

    I know I'm throwing tons of info at you guys, but I did make a post 3-4 years ago when this all started. It got derailed and I was a little deflated as no one else who rode the bike seemed to think there was anything wrong (and I wasn't able to identify the issue with the help of you, fine folks of the forums here). But I noticed the change... I still knew something was off...

    https://www.600riders.com/forum/gara...my-engine.html

    Tom

  6. #16
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by TownsendsFJR1300 View Post
    Your welcome. (See the BOLDED ABOVE)

    I kinda doubt with the low mileage, etc, the internals will be fine. An older bike, NOT used, fuel issues tend to be the biggest issue.

    Did any of your spark plugs look much different (black/sooty) than the others?
    Hi Scott,

    I haven't forgotten this reply, I will get some pics of the plugs and post tomorrow. Long and short, the plugs appeared ok, but I need to take a better look. When I pulled them I had a laundry list of stuff to get done that day (front brakes, clutch cable, valve clearance check), so I may have not payed close attention to the plugs condition (nothing obvious jumped out, though).

    Tom

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  8. #17
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    If you recall that thread I felt mine get fixed and and then the vibes came back in 2000 mi or 200 mi. I finally gave up. Tried to find wire I could replace my own, but no luck.
    Purposely sought out S1 coils as the bulk of the complaints are the S2 gang.

    So if you haven't had this since new and someone blew up the clutch, there is a chance its been replaced. Yours being so mild says the damage was mild. Now add in an engine having these harmonic vibrations (firing order is not spot on), and this noise is exasperated.

    That said a blown clutch disc is not a power robber.
    For me, there was no discernable power loss from the coil wire issues. Just a numbing vibration that made the bike painful to ride home. One day I was so pissed I wanted to throw it in the ditch and walk home. Hence I had to solve the mystery. You know!!?

    True vibes started at 4.4k and were bad to 7.5k or so. All else was pretty normal.
    That said everyone said this normal I4 operation. BS! It is not!!!!
    It wasn't this way when I grabbed it with 4k on the clock.

    Bottom line is every time it bit me w those F'd vibes I fought back and proved I could change it by messing with the coil wires.

    Don't give up on this Avenue! Some take one crack and it doesn't work and right it off. BUT if you know it wasnt this way and those wires changed it once, well they are still suspicious IMO!

    Make sense?
    Go own that SOB!
    Last edited by FinalImpact; 07-27-2018 at 08:59 PM.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

  9. #18
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    If you recall that thread I felt mine get fixed and and then the vibes came back in 2000 mi or 200 mi. I finally gave up. Tried to find wire I could replace my own, but no luck.
    Purposely sought out S1 coils as the bulk of the complaints are the S2 gang.

    So if you haven't had this since new and someone blew up the clutch, there is a chance its been replaced. Yours being so mild says the damage was mild. Now add in an engine having these harmonic vibrations (firing order is not spot on), and this noise is exasperated.

    That said a blown clutch disc is not a power robber.
    For me, there was no discernable power loss from the coil wire issues. Just a numbing vibration that made the bike painful to ride home. One day I was so pissed I wanted to throw it in the ditch and walk home. Hence I had to solve the mystery. You know!!?

    True vibes started at 4.4k and were bad to 7.5k or so. All else was pretty normal.
    That said everyone said this normal I4 operation. BS! It is not!!!!
    It wasn't this way when I grabbed it with 4k on the clock.

    Bottom line is every time it bit me w those F'd vibes I fought back and proved I could change it by messing with the coil wires.

    Don't give up on this Avenue! Some take one crack and it doesn't work and right it off. BUT if you know it wasnt this way and those wires changed it once, well they are still suspicious IMO!

    Make sense?
    Go own that SOB!
    Thanks for the inspiration, i'm not letting this thing kick my ass!

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  11. #19
    tom_nuke (OP)
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom_nuke View Post
    Hi Scott,

    I haven't forgotten this reply, I will get some pics of the plugs and post tomorrow. Long and short, the plugs appeared ok, but I need to take a better look. When I pulled them I had a laundry list of stuff to get done that day (front brakes, clutch cable, valve clearance check), so I may have not payed close attention to the plugs condition (nothing obvious jumped out, though).

    Tom
    After 8 trips (i'm not kidding) to various place today, I was finally able to do the leak down test. I needed a compression tester hose to make a DIY leak down tester. Well, it turns out that most rental units only support 14mm threaded plugs (that's right O'reilly parts guy, they are NOT all the same). Shame on my for not bringing one with me, I guess. So after all that, I was finally able to test.

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_163212-jpg

    All cylinders tested good, always within 2-5 PSI of the source pressure (checking each at various pressure from 40/60/80100 PSI):

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_163307-jpg

    Here are the plugs:

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_114138-jpg
    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_114149-jpg
    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_114156-jpg
    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_114220-jpg

    Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)-20180728_114247-jpg

    Thanks!

    Tom

  12. #20
    2007 FZ6 TownsendsFJR1300's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Timing appears to be off (stretched timing chain?)

    Glad the internals are tight, we can rule that out.

    ***Those plugs look bad and very worn, BUT #3, the electrode is GONE*** .

    That large a gap, I doubt any spark is jumping (dead cylinder)

    Now, besides replacing the plugs (try OEMs please) and make sure you have the correct heat range.

    With #3 plug being as such, it's possible the coil is damaged from it sending spark with no where (ground is too far away) to go.

    Check for spark with the new plugs in the wires, grounded to the engine BUT not installed in the holes..


    Can you post the gaps of those plugs just for S&G's please. Gap should be .024-.028"
    Last edited by TownsendsFJR1300; 07-28-2018 at 04:16 PM.
    Scott
    2007 Yamaha FZ6- BD43 headlight mod, PIAA bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, custom radiator/fan protector, Techspec tank pads, Grip Puppies, Yamaha rear rack with custom aluminum flat rack.

  13. Thanks Motogiro thanked for this post
 

 
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