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  1. #1
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Crisis takes to chattering, During Hard Braking that is.. .. ..

    Since the addition of the R6 forks 2 seasons ago (2012-02), in that 1st season I had one event of down hill corner braking where the nose went into a ballistic chatter that had me on the double yellow at high speeds and the only means of stopping it was letting off the brakes. However, it never repeated for 10 months (End of 2012) so I wrote it off as a conditional.

    OK - so from March of 2013 to June, I've ridden allot of the same roads. I did change tires and had the chatter thing happen on a road I ride more often. I've been back and sure enough I can repeat it! The area has a pronounced washout/ripples/divets/bumps where everyone brakes before this corner. OK - i can accept that where the road is abusive it could put the ball in play. But now, its an upward trend happening about 5 times tonight which is an all time record. One of those events nearly got me in trouble and this time I couldn't see anything in the road bump wise.
    • Key takeaway: this only happens going downhill, braking HARD, on rough surface, and leaning. Remove ANY of ONE factor and it never happens! That said it seems to be a tire loading issue making the tire dribble and the suspension bouncing in unison with the tire (aka "Rubber Ball"). It IS NOT a Brake issue but a loading/weight transfer issue when the brakes are used hard!
    • Goal --> Change one thing at a time and try to reduce or eliminate the headset dribble!

    - tire pressure same // 33.5psi
    - tires good, S20s
    - brake fluid - DUE, ready for bleeding
    - Forks, no leaks, but two years on fluid. They are due for a fluid change.

    Before she gets parked for the winter, I'll at least do the brake fluid and see if I get a run in to duplicate before weather turns (its imminent). My gut instinct says its a combo of all things. Conditions, tire pressure, fork damping, and brakes. Its still running the OEM pads from 08. They have life but, maybe they need swapped. Rotor surface looks just as it has.

    I'll keep you posted as to what I find. And lets not exclude the back of the bike. No changes anywhere, but I suppose it could factor into this also.

    Anyone else have chatter issues? Only saw one thread on the issue...

    EDIT LIST:
    *****************************
    ACTUAL CHANGES / PROGRESS REPORT SNIPIT...
    *****************************

    NOTE: N/C = No change to performance

    2014-01-05 (N/C) Dump Fork oil (10wt --> 7.5wt), measure and reset SAG, Clean calipers & bleed brakes, verify rotor deflection.
    2014-04 Riding season under way!
    2014-04 to 06 Minor improvements with increased Tire pressure. Played with lots of values front and rear.
    2014-06-20 (N/C) New brake pads installed and bled brakes again.
    2014-06-29 Improved! Synchronized rebound damping on both forks, decreased rear sag, increased rebound rate.
    2014-07-26 New 016 Pro front tire. Too soon to tell. Verified rotor trueness after install.

    *****************************

    JJD952
    Last edited by FinalImpact; 07-28-2014 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Title in error; add edit list

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  3. #2
    Never stop exploring darius's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    Yikes. Take care, Randy. Your gut says it's a combo yet you're only going to make a single change for now?

    Why not clean/service the front calipers and get new pads, fork oil all at once?

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  5. #3
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    Once parked it's gonna geat allot more attention. Timeline says I'm not gonna do it all at once now.... Anyway, conditions have to be juuuuuuuuust right to put the ball in play. Granted I could do it all in a day, but too much going right now.

    Add in the head bearings too. Still the originals... Feel fine but I'd rather see if one item solves it if possible and once parked. Its all gonna get done. Lets see what the weather does.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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    Junior Member DeepBlueRider's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    From your description it sound like you would lock front wheel but your tires are too good to skid. But you haven't lock wheel, right ?

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  9. #5
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    Negative on that. No wheel lock on either end.

    Picture -
    60 mph, ease into brakes with constant increase in applied pressure (braking fairly aggressively) , could be leaned over or upright. By this time the brakes are warming and we're usually tipping into the corner and have slowed substantially by now. The nose starts a very rythmic pulse/chatter, pushing straight back on the bars so its transmitting this to me the rider. At this point, the bars rattling "likely has" my hand varying the brake pressure applied. Walla - its in full motion.... Because I've dropped the speed, I'm easing off the brakes and the chatter stops. However, a year ago and one other time I dribbled near trouble and let off to lean it over. it was bad!

    One change I forget about since this stepped up, I rotated the bars up so they have more clearance over the tank during full tilt turns and I never matched my levers to the new angle. i.e. rotate them down so the line from my shoulders to to fingers is basically parallel neither pointing my fingers up or too far curled.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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    Super Moderator Cali rider's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    SNIP....Anyone else have chatter issues? Only saw one thread on the issue...

    JJD952
    Yes, I did. I think you are referring to this long post I made... http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-t...tml#post502270

    My problem was exactly word for word what is happening with you. I could duplicate that shaking/pulsation at will but it would also happen at unexpected times. I could make it happen at 5 MPH as well. The only remaining item I wished I had checked was the swingarm pivot bearings. I can tell you that I completely lost confidence in riding the FZ6 and that became the primary reason I sold it.

    I consider myself VERY technically adept. I have designed tools, repaired everything from watches to 2000 ton presses and have the patience to methodically troubleshoot complex problems. I spent upwards of 80 hours trying to cure this problem. I NEVER found the cause.

    If I can be of any assistance Randy let me know...I would love to resolve this issue in my mind.
    Last edited by Cali rider; 10-25-2013 at 09:48 AM.
    John





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    Super Moderator Cali rider's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    And I'm making this topic a Sticky as it's critical that it gets noticed by other members.
    John





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    Professional test dummy yamihoe's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    2 things, mine (r6 forks and calipers) does it sometimes when theres a dust buildup, It goes away if I spray down the calipers and pads with brake parts cleaner, It got me in trouble once as well. try that first!!

    Second: I was working on a cbr where any use of the front brakes would make the whole bike shudder, like shake your hands off the bars type of shudder, the rotors have little shims that had come out and you could wiggle the rotor, but it was true, not warped at all.

    that also lead to the headbearings going bad, that also made the bike shudder horribly, but that was much more consistent.
    2007 Fz1- stock as a block
    2002 R1- SOLD
    2005 JDM FZ6- custom exhaust, co mod, duel headlight mod, 17t front sprocket, airbox cutout, R6 front forks, R6 calipers, ss HEL lines, integrated signals, frame sliders, 50k Smiles!
    1995 YZF600R- SOLD
    1965 Mustang- SOLD
    2000 Mustang GT- 4.6 Windsor,,l.s. 3.73s ( Cobra DOHC BUILT TT swap in the works)

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  17. #9
    UK Luchador
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    is the front too soft? have you lowered the front at all or raised the back?

    could be that when braking hard, the front end is being pushed down, reducing the trail, making steering a lot more sensitive and causing a bit of a slapper

    the rate of rebound could also be too low, to it can't track the road as well

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  19. #10
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Crisis takes to chattering, brakes that is.. .. ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cali rider View Post
    Yes, I did. I think you are referring to this long post I made... http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-t...tml#post502270

    My problem was exactly word for word what is happening with you. I could duplicate that shaking/pulsation at will but it would also happen at unexpected times. I could make it happen at 5 MPH as well. The only remaining item I wished I had checked was the swingarm pivot bearings. I can tell you that I completely lost confidence in riding the FZ6 and that became the primary reason I sold it.

    I consider myself VERY technically adept. I have designed tools, repaired everything from watches to 2000 ton presses and have the patience to methodically troubleshoot complex problems. I spent upwards of 80 hours trying to cure this problem. I NEVER found the cause.

    If I can be of any assistance Randy let me know...I would love to resolve this issue in my mind.
    Thanks! I will keep this in mind. Fwiw: on a smooth road I can panic brake from 80 without issues. Its when the road, forks, pads and me all work together out of harmony that this condition occurs. So, didn't want bring this up, but some of you may recall I found her taking a nap in the parking lot. That pushed the bars over an. inch and is when I raised them.
    I may put them back and see what happens. If you think of the tire as rubber ball it wants to bounce. So independently all things are ok. However, the riders grip on the brake lever is a variable...
    Thanks for your input on this. I do want to single step it and see what is the biggest contributor. Hopefully it can be solved!

    PS - Cliff mentioned build up on the rotor in that other thread, why would this not be factor all the time? Ya, it just needs the right conditions to propagate.

    Thanksa all!!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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