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  1. #201
    It's all good! Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!! trepetti's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzbomb View Post
    Yes I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea of replacing the standard coils with COPs. Once I started finding some links and examples of other bikes being converted I thought I'd give it a go. Having the coils wired in series isn't ideal as if one coil open circuits the other one will too, so you lose 2 cylinders instead of just one, but that's how the bike was all along with 2 coils for 4 cylinders so there's no real change. Having them wired in series creates a bit more resistance than standard (I measured 2.4ohms with my coils in series compared to a standard original coil spec of 1.5-2ohms) so there is less current flowing through the transistors in the ECU, but a bit more resistance/less current flow is better than too much current IMO.
    I played around with a neat android app called Circuit Jam and it's basically a geeky game based on electronic circuits. After you solve a heap of puzzles it unlocks components in a sandbox so I was able to create the circuit with coils wired in series and parallel. Here is the series wiring showing 2 COP coils with an average of 1.4ohms. Across each coil there's a 7.2volt drop, and 5.14 amps flowing though each coil, making around 37watts of power flowing through each coil.
    Attachment 69431


    Next up I played around with the idea of a parallel circuit, but to restrict the current flow though the transistors I would need a 1.3ohm resistor. This meant that now I only had 3.6 amps flowing through each coil, with 5 volts across the coils, which works out to around 18 watts at each coil.
    Attachment 69432

    I'm not sure how it's all going to last in the long run but so far the bike runs really nicely, in fact its been years since it ran this smoothly! The coils fit nicely but when they click down onto the spark plugs it feels like they have only grabbed onto the top thread, instead of the original caps where you could feel it clicking down on several threads on the top of the plug. I might have to look at trimming the rubber grommet to allow the coils to fit a little lower onto the spark plug but I'll worry about that if I see lots of arcing on the top of the plugs.

    Anyway thank you again for everyone's help on this forum. Sorry for geeking out a bit in this post.
    I am watching this closely. Definitely a mod I will do if it works out.

    I like to see things simply....
    - lower wattage of mod should mean cooler running transistors in the ECU
    - series wiring presents no reliability loss compared to oem
    - concerned about heat/duty cycle of COPs. Waste spark mode means 100% increase in duty cycle, can the COPs operate at that frequency and manage heat?. A shorted coil will fry the ECU

    Also curious about the COP to plug connection. Perhaps additional resistance adding to heat load on the COP?

    Anyway, I'm interested brother. Please keep us informed. My 05 with 55k miles will need coils someday, would rather do this in the off-season with newer FZ07 coils and be done with it.

    Good luck brother!
    2005 FZ6 - R6 Forks, FZ1 bar, Killernoodle clutch lever, Puig windscreen, Woodcraft sliders, BD43 headlight mod, Watsen LED signals, 2-Wheels levers, SW Motec tank bag, Givi topcase, Galfer SS brake lines, LED pod lights, Hyperlites, Grip Puppies

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  3. #202
    Resident Lurker buzzbomb's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TownsendsFJR1300 View Post
    Re, the clicking on of the caps. Try putting a little dielectric grease on the rubber where it meets the valve cover. The rubber gets hard over time (many heat cycles). The grease makes slipping them on and off MUCH easier.

    I don't have the COP but just the regular plug caps, this makes a BIG difference..
    Gotta love the dielectric grease! I keep it handy for certain jobs. Definately helped installing the coils when I put them in. They take a bit of effort to get out so they won't shake themselves out any time soon.

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  5. #203
    Resident Lurker buzzbomb's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    Quote Originally Posted by trepetti View Post
    I am watching this closely. Definitely a mod I will do if it works out.

    I like to see things simply....
    - lower wattage of mod should mean cooler running transistors in the ECU
    - series wiring presents no reliability loss compared to oem
    - concerned about heat/duty cycle of COPs. Waste spark mode means 100% increase in duty cycle, can the COPs operate at that frequency and manage heat?. A shorted coil will fry the ECU

    Also curious about the COP to plug connection. Perhaps additional resistance adding to heat load on the COP?

    Anyway, I'm interested brother. Please keep us informed. My 05 with 55k miles will need coils someday, would rather do this in the off-season with newer FZ07 coils and be done with it.

    Good luck brother!
    Hey Trepetti thanks for the reply!

    I was curious to know about the heat and duty cycle at full revs when I was installing the COPs, and the longevity is still an unknown factor. There seems to be enough spark energy despite only having half the voltage running across the coils, and restricted dwell time to charge the coils, but it ran cleanly up through the rev range on my test ride.

    As for the resistance of the plug connections, I checked the resistances as I was working out wire placement, and found no issues with the clip. They lock on securely with a positive click and good connections. I decided to run the wiring along the back of the cylinder head rather than the front and bought some nylon sheathing and heatshrink to make the wiring look neat and professional.

    I will keep you guys updated over the next few months. Now that it's registered and the weather is warming up (in this part of the world at least!) I want to get back into riding again.

    Thanks again!

    BB

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  7. #204
    Resident Lurker buzzbomb's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    Another option would be to add your own external switches. Like four fast switching FETs with a heat sink each rated at 60w or so. Keeping in mind the ECU is pulling these to ground. This would unload the ECM from doing any work. The problem now is that the ECM doesn't see the expected impedance and throws an error.

    Something to think about.
    Interesting option you raise there FI, I had thought of doing something along the lines of MOSFETs but haven't really played around with them before. That would solve the power issue and separate it from the ECM completely, allowing you to run the coils at full power. I would think that would give the coils a faster charge up time, but may run the coils hotter as they're firing twice as often.

    For the time being I can put down the spanners and enjoy the bike with everything back together...you guys don't know how long my poor bike sat with the fairings off and the tank up! I was pulling out my hair trying to pin down the vibes. It was just a shame that I didn't notice earlier that the old coils were out of spec in regard to primary resistance. I tried changing the leads but that created it's own headaches, when I should have changed coils sooner.

    Cheers,
    BB

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  9. #205
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzbomb View Post
    Interesting option you raise there FI, I had thought of doing something along the lines of MOSFETs but haven't really played around with them before. That would solve the power issue and separate it from the ECM completely, allowing you to run the coils at full power. I would think that would give the coils a faster charge up time, but may run the coils hotter as they're firing twice as often.

    For the time being I can put down the spanners and enjoy the bike with everything back together...you guys don't know how long my poor bike sat with the fairings off and the tank up! I was pulling out my hair trying to pin down the vibes. It was just a shame that I didn't notice earlier that the old coils were out of spec in regard to primary resistance. I tried changing the leads but that created it's own headaches, when I should have changed coils sooner.

    Cheers,
    BB
    OK so bottom line is this. Another situation where cutting, trimming, coil replacement doesn't fix this bike but let us not loose focus on the root cause.

    The ignition system induced a horrid vibration!!!!!!!!!!!!
    This is NOT NORMAL!
    I got lucky as I saw it change every time I touched it!
    Others did not, but still, this engine can be very smooth when all things are proper!!!!

    Don't give up people! Don't give up!

    I am glad you went to an extreme and it worked! Good job!

    I ride way to deep into no-man's land so reliability is everything to me. I'm not willing to risk walking 100mi in my boots just yet.
    Let me noodle on this...

    Be safe!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  11. #206
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzbomb View Post
    Yes I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea of replacing the standard coils with COPs. Once I started finding some links and examples of other bikes being converted I thought I'd give it a go. Having the coils wired in series isn't ideal as if one coil open circuits the other one will too, so you lose 2 cylinders instead of just one, but that's how the bike was all along with 2 coils for 4 cylinders so there's no real change. Having them wired in series creates a bit more resistance than standard (I measured 2.4ohms with my coils in series compared to a standard original coil spec of 1.5-2ohms) so there is less current flowing through the transistors in the ECU, but a bit more resistance/less current flow is better than too much current IMO.
    I played around with a neat android app called Circuit Jam and it's basically a geeky game based on electronic circuits. After you solve a heap of puzzles it unlocks components in a sandbox so I was able to create the circuit with coils wired in series and parallel. Here is the series wiring showing 2 COP coils with an average of 1.4ohms. Across each coil there's a 7.2volt drop, and 5.14 amps flowing though each coil, making around 37watts of power flowing through each coil.
    Attachment 69431


    Next up I played around with the idea of a parallel circuit, but to restrict the current flow though the transistors I would need a 1.3ohm resistor. This meant that now I only had 3.6 amps flowing through each coil, with 5 volts across the coils, which works out to around 18 watts at each coil.
    Attachment 69432

    I'm not sure how it's all going to last in the long run but so far the bike runs really nicely, in fact its been years since it ran this smoothly! The coils fit nicely but when they click down onto the spark plugs it feels like they have only grabbed onto the top thread, instead of the original caps where you could feel it clicking down on several threads on the top of the plug. I might have to look at trimming the rubber grommet to allow the coils to fit a little lower onto the spark plug but I'll worry about that if I see lots of arcing on the top of the plugs.

    Anyway thank you again for everyone's help on this forum. Sorry for geeking out a bit in this post.

    Any updates on this?
    Also, although the stock system is waste spark it is in fact firing for each compression stroke. That said both oem and your COP setup are being fired at the same rate for any given RPM so the concern about dwell time is not really a factor in terms of rate of discharge given the same RPM.

    Series coil energy
    Speculation is this: cylinder pressure impacts spark energy just like a lean or rich fuel ratio does.

    We are not talking extremes here but rich AFR takes less spark energy to jump the plugs gap than lean AFR.
    That said, no cylinder pressure **likely means** the spark energy needed to jump the plugs gap on the cylinder not being fired is much lower thus your series connection works as the coil energy is driven by demand rather than being split equally regardless of what is happening in the combustion chamber.

    If you were to place test leads of an oscilloscope across both input coils and measure the voltage you would see that the cylinder being fired loads the coil drawing more current. That said I believe the series wiring of the coils works based on cylinder combustion pressure literally driving the current demand for spark energy based on which cylinder is being fired.

    I see those who think in terms of a current (amps) through the primary coils when wired in series concluding it must be equal therefore any spark delivered by the secondary winding should be equal. Believe me, in my mind I think this too. But without measuring this with an oscilloscope I can't prove it. But I do know cylinder loading drives the demand just like the waste spark system does.

    Let us know how this working for you!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  13. #207
    Vrrroooooom! Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!! Motogiro's Avatar
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    Re: Vibration! A cure for bad vibrations, Spark Plug Caps!!

    If we see a drop in that secondary voltage, should we not address this variable in relation to the spark plug gap? Again we need an O'scope to really see what the truer story is. Maybe the sweet spot would be 24-28 VDC at the coil primary input if you're running the COP's in series? But again what are the ECU switching transistors seeing voltage wise? We've got 2 primary windings that are nice fat inductors and when we cut them loose is there a big spike or interference with the field collapse? So Q or impedance may be a larger factor that needs attention as we're not just dealing with DC. As rpm or frequency changes the impedance will change.
    If you can't fix it by hitting it with a hammer, it's electrical!

    Clif
    SoCal Hoon

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