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  1. #1
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Post Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Project outline: determine Ignition Advance rate of Stock 2008 FZ6

    Goal:
    Plot graph from idle to redline of ignition advance/spark advance while changing variables. Questions are many! Like; What effects advance, how much does it have, what can I gain by changing it.. .. ..

    At minimum I expect the RPM, TPS, and maybe the gear selected to be variables. Others could include Engine temperature, Engine Vacuum, and O2 output (highly unlikely), airbox temp (also HU).

    How will I figure it out:
    Using the bike under load is not an option as that involves holding a timing light to its internals while going down the road reading a degree wheel with oil flying out og the crankcase. Not gonna happen. Next option is to fake the ECU into thinking the bike is running. That is doable!
    With an RC speed controller and brushless motor I intend to spin a spare trigger wheel up through a range of RPMs while a spare CKP sensor monitors its output sending it to the ECU. Now compare the rpm vs timing advance delivered to the spark plugs using an oscilloscope. The waste spark system will complicate this, but I'll figure that out.

    Issue to overcome:
    1) I need an electronic transmission as the crank on the bike won't be turning but the ECM will see a crank input signal. I can verify my tach and motor speed calculations so I have two reference points in that area. I need to make a circuit with a divider, an amplifier, and out output that has selection to mimic what the transmission gear ratios do (an electronic divider circuit that matches the ratios of the transmission) and feed that to the ECU. So I need mimic the transmissions output sensor.

    2) Simulate TPS = easy, turn the grip
    3) simulate Engine Temp = easy, a variable resistor
    4) simulate Engine vacuum = easy, a syringe to the sensor with a gauge to monitor pressure.
    5) O2 sensor, I doubt it looks at this, but I need to consider it might expect a signal. If so another simulator to make. A signusoidal wave floating on a DC signal. ~ possible ~

    WHY WOULD I DO THIS?? lol
    Well, I modified an OEM trigger wheel advancing the static timing about 5 degrees! The engine WAKES UP! It becomes VERY responsive to throttle input, it runs smoother, pulls harder and makes me grin more.

    Main reason; I really want to know if the advance curve cares what gear the bike is in. If it changes the curve based upon "what gear is selected" It could really come alive a rumor has it, 1,2,3 offer limited advance. Also the R6 runs about 5+ degrees more advance than our engine.

    If I find it has limited advance, I may ship off othe ECM to ECU Unleashed who I might add, does to Group Buys of ECU re-map.... Still not cheap tho.

    Meet Trigger:


    Trigger, test drive #1:


    Trigger at 1214 RPM: hint - my idle speed is roughly 1200 RPM so this is a good baseline to work from.
    RPM = t/period or 60sec/0.0494sec = 1214 RPM


    Trigger plus Dewalt: lol



    Its going to make countless MIL codes to the display, but I don't care. I'll have the fuel pump disconnected but let the plugs and injectors fire. Injectors MAY get unlpugged as I I suppose this could heat them with no fuel to cool them. IDK

    That's it for now. oh - you'll notice the trigger wheel is not symmetrical. The camel hump next to each other creates the variation shown on the O'scope. It locates number one. I'd like to make an electronic filter to detect it. So I have some reading to do unless someone knows how to extract that signature from the signal!

    Also - thanks Skooter!!!
    Last edited by Motogiro; 11-07-2014 at 10:47 AM.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  3. #2
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Links to be edited often:

    Megasquirt - a bunch of DIY fueling and timing geeks....
    Megasquirt-3 MS3 Trigger Wheel

    Convert square wave into sign wave... Could be helpful later...
    http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbfa003/sbfa003.pdf
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  5. #3
    FinalImpact (OP)
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    PROBLEMS:

    2013-09-28
    It just dawned on me that internally I don't know when the ECU is counting a signal *pulse* from the trigger wheel to use for clocking the various functions. Specifically the one used to compare the transmission output shaft for speed calculations.

    That is with 8 potential triggers from the trigger wheel, I don't know if its 1:1 , 8:1, or some other count in between to drive the comparator to simulate the drive train output shaft speed. I guess "if" I ever get it right, the speedo will agree with the RPM for that gear. Its the only salvation I can see to solve the riddle.

    I'll need real data from the bike in first gear at idle. Maybe grab 2nd gear too so know the relationship.

    - - -
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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    Junior Member fazil's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Well, I modified an OEM trigger wheel advancing the static timing about 5 degrees! The engine WAKES UP! It becomes VERY responsive to throttle input, it runs smoother, pulls harder and makes me grin more.
    Are you talking about a Fz6 engine?
    An other member has done it about a year ago. But he didn't give enough details about the mod and outcome.

    http://www.600riders.com/forum/fz6-m...ng-timing.html

  8. #5
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Yes, but it has one drawback; it also advances the fuel injection which isn't helpful to our cause. But with a fuel management system you can offset this by adding more fuel.

    Here is what I did for a sanity check: The OD of the trigger wheel is 2.4785"
    Dia * Pie/360 = In/per degree
    2.4785" * 3.14159 = circumference/360 = 0.021628" per degree. If you want it advanced 4 degrees from its original location, that internal slot need to allow for rotation of 4deg * 0.021628"/deg = 0.086".

    So, doing the same math on the internal slot of the smaller diameter (I forgot its ID), but do your math based upon the circumference of the slot dia not the hole dia. It matters!

    Lets say the circumference of the locater tab/slot is 0.60" (guess).
    ((0.60" * 3.14159)/360) * 4 deg = 0.021" you need to open the slot to advance the static timing 4 degrees in addition to the 5 degrees its supposedly set at now. Engine spins CW so open the slot to allow the wheel to move CW.

    FWIW: It doesn't seem like much, but that trigger wheel has some mass. Perhaps even enough to move itself over time. Either weld up the backside or use a flat punch on something solid to peen the metal flat expanding it to fill the slot. Yes, it will be thinner but it has something vs nothing.

    EDIT: You need to run higher octane gas if you do this!!!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

  9. #6
    Never stop exploring darius's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    There you go with your PIES again, Randy.

    Looks really cool. Don't blow it up!!

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  11. #7
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Quote Originally Posted by darius View Post
    There you go with your PIES again, Randy.

    Looks really cool. Don't blow it up!!
    That why we have craigslist; i.e. well cared for, 2nd owner, adult owned, never raced, "minor" mods, but ate pie one day so I sold it! :BLAA:

    She has to last until the former spouse is paid off, then perhaps an FZ9!
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  13. #8
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Speed sensor part of my project...
    We need to know which gear is aligned to the speed sensor and how many teeth it has so I can make circuit to output what the ECM should see in relation to the CPS signal. i.e math of primary reduction, minus gear selected plus the tooth count of gear adjacent to speed sensor.

    Primary reduction ratio 86/44 (1.955)
    Secondary reduction ratio 46/16 (2.875) - don't care, sensor can't see it...

    Once again, thanks to the detailed pictures @AdamFZ took, I've narrowed this down to 5th gear on the input which is gear #3 on the Transmission drawing having 21 teeth. Notice it floats on the input shaft and is in constant mesh with gear #29 which is splined to the output shaft. So, regardless of the gear selected (if any (N)), if the chain moves, it will detect it.





    Gear ratio
    1st 37/13 (2.846:1)
    2nd 37/19 (1.947:1)
    3rd 28/18 (1.556:1)
    4th 32/24 (1.333:1)
    5th 25/21 (1.190:1)
    6th 26/24 (1.083:1)

    At a glance it looks like the circuit needs a simple divider of 1.955:1 and then I'm looking at a 21 multiplier to emulate the signal the ECM sees from the speed sensor for the gear choosen.

    (44/86) * (13/37) * 21t = 3.7747 x RPM....

    Although this certainly is subject to error!

    Speed sensor Output voltage reading when tire is spun by hand:
    0.6 V–4.8 V–0.6 V–4.8 V

    Road blocks are: the crazy amount of voltage these sensors output as the velocity of the trigger devices increase. The trigger sensor goes from just under 1 volt at 100 RPM to over 50 volts which means I need supply rail of +/-30 volts for the circuit to operate. So now its about building supply rails capable of doing this. And no, I have not successfully detected and counted from the missing/stagger tooth. Its a serious PITA to successfully track that signature when the voltages swings so dramatically with change in RPM.

    This could land over my head. It has been since I stated spinning that damn trigger. Its likely to end by simply mechanically advancing the trigger one more time and leaving it.
    Last edited by FinalImpact; 03-14-2017 at 03:31 PM.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

  14. #9
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    An actual breakthrough! An IC and circuit that does what I needed! The IC is $4.00 and is available. What I don't know is how and what it does w/the double hump on the wheel?!

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    I know I mentioned the pickup was a Hall, that is incorrect. Its a AC magnetic pickup coil hence the reason you see the voltage climb with RPM.

    Potential Solution:
    http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm1815.pdf
    LM1815MX/NOPB Texas Instruments | 296-35392-6-ND | DigiKey $$4.00$$

    Then scroll down about 2/3 of the way here: MS1/Extra Ignition Hardware Manual and/or search for "VR input Sensor wiring for a V2.2 PCB"

    LM1815 Adaptive Variable Reluctance Sensor Amplifier
    FEATURES

    Adaptive Hysteresis
    Single Supply Operation
    Ground Referenced Input
    True Zero Crossing Timing Reference
    Operates from 2V to 12V Supply Voltage
    Handles Inputs from 100 mVP-P to over 120VP-P with External Resistor
    CMOS Compatible Logic

    APPLICATIONS
    Position Sensing with Notched Wheels
    Zero Crossing Switch
    Motor Speed Control
    Tachometer
    Engine Testing

    DESCRIPTION
    The LM1815 is an adaptive sense amplifier and default gating circuit for motor control applications. The sense amplifier provides a one-shot pulse output whose leading edge coincides with the negative- going zero crossing of a ground referenced input signal such as from a variable reluctance magnetic pick-up coil.
    In normal operation, this timing reference signal is processed (delayed) externally and returned to the LM1815. A Logic input is then able to select either the timing reference or the processed signal for transmission to the output driver stage.

    The adaptive sense amplifier operates with a positive going threshold which is derived by peak detecting the incoming signal and dividing this down. Thus the input hysteresis varies with input signal amplitude. This enables the circuit to sense in situations where the high speed noise is greater than the low speed signal amplitude. Minimum input signal is 150mVP-P.

    Simpler - do a comparison: NCV1124
    Dual Variable−Reluctance Sensor Interface IC
    http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Colla...TA%20SHEET.PDF

    lol and for brake systems - NCV7001 Quad Variable Reluctance Sensor Interface IC

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  16. #10
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Tags: throttle chop, Abrupt throttle response, rewetting runners, smooth input

    Because advancing the ignition timing can destroy an engine I haven't went into much detail on what I've been doing or done. Anyone reading this and deciding to tackle it on their own - this is on you - if you play and ruin your engine don't say I didn't warn you! An error here could cost you an engine and place your safety at risk!

    That said, for the past couple of months I've been slowly moving the ignition timing "advancing it" small amounts to see how the engine responds. The R6 sits at 10 advance at idle and has slightly more compression than the FZ6 at 5 at idle. Needless to say I've had the trigger wheel in and out and back to stock several times to see if what I feel is real or just my imagination. Remember; I'm the change one thing at time person so I know what does what.

    Bottom line: Adding ~ +5 of advance had a change I didn't expect. It seems to help the partial throttle transition where it has that abrupt ON/OFF binary input. The Chop! I am not saying this is the fix abrupt throttle chop or that everyone should try it, but if a couple of you were to try it and comment as to its effectiveness that could help others who dislike this attribute on the FZ. I'll give you the details and we'll go from there.

    PROS:
    • Engine is smoother, less vibrations
    • Less exhaust popping on deceleration (2 Bro Exhaust w/air block off plates)
    • No change in engine temp
    • Partial throttle re-wet is improved (~ 1500 RPM - 4500 RPM)
    • Bike starts easier
    • Easy to do
    • Throttle Response improved

    CONS:
    • ** YOU CAN RUIN YOUR ENGINE if advanced in EXCESS!!!! **
    • Fuel grade MUST BE improved (regular to plus, or if its real hot outside, Premium), to get the most from this mod.
    • It will ping/detonate upon take off on steep hills much easier. This can be avoided by slipping the clutch (bring the RPMs up), which most do anyway!
    • Its time consuming to mark and determine degrees of advance as the rotor is very small!


    Undecided:
    Colder heat range of spark plugs may reduce detonation and stay clean
    It may improve MPGs

    NOTE: My FZ has the C0/C1 changed from OEM = 0 to 25 for both C0/C1


    If none of this stands out and makes 100% sense to you, please don't mess with your bike! I am not responsible for damage as a result of your actions!

    In short, one needs a timing light with digital dial back so you can confirm what you've done.

    Tools:
    Veneer Calipers with 0.001" resolution
    Allen wrench
    12mm socket / breaker or easier w/ AIR Impact gun
    Files
    Vise
    Patience!

    Let me know if your interested!
    Regards,
    FI
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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