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  1. #11
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Of all the playing I've done it may be tad much at 12. The plugs went from a light chocolate brown to bare with scary looking deposits on them. I cant say for certain what it is but one possibility is aluminum. However it could be something in the fuel. Also the headers and mid pipe are taking on a flat dull appearance. It certainly changed the sound of pipes but without a knock sensor its time to go back a few degrees or drop in cooler plugs and see how it does.

    In the interim I've bumped the C0/C1 values = 35 from 25. Note OEM setting was 0 for both...
    You wouldn't know it from looking at these pictures but the insulator is near white w no color. Hence adding more fuel.

    No 3


    No 4


    Measure the dia through the center of the nub (red) for calculations. File (blue) so as to advance timing.
    Shown Backside of trigger wheel:
    Last edited by FinalImpact; 08-29-2014 at 08:50 AM.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  3. #12
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    If I read this correctly to get 4 degrees you file the .021"? Wow the effort you put into this awesome. Did you ever figure out if it does anything to timing with a gear position sensor?

  4. #13
    Vrrroooooom! Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger Motogiro's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Quote Originally Posted by FinalImpact View Post
    Project outline: determine Ignition Advance rate of Stock 2008 FZ6

    Goal:
    Plot graph from idle to redline of ignition advance/spark advance while changing variables. Questions are many! Like; What effects advance, how much does it have, what can I gain by changing it.. .. ..

    At minimum I expect the RPM, TPS, and maybe the gear selected to be variables. Others could include Engine temperature, Engine Vacuum, and O2 output (highly unlikely), airbox temp (also HU).

    How will I figure it out:
    Using the bike under load is not an option as that involves holding a timing light to its internals while going down the road reading a degree wheel with oil flying out og the crankcase. Not gonna happen. Next option is to fake the ECU into thinking the bike is running. That is doable!
    With an RC speed controller and brushless motor I intend to spin a spare trigger wheel up through a range of RPMs while a spare CKP sensor monitors its output sending it to the ECU. Now compare the rpm vs timing advance delivered to the spark plugs using an oscilloscope. The waste spark system will complicate this, but I'll figure that out.

    Issue to overcome:
    1) I need an electronic transmission as the crank on the bike won't be turning but the ECM will see a crank input signal. I can verify my tach and motor speed calculations so I have two reference points in that area. I need to make a circuit with a divider, an amplifier, and out output that has selection to mimic what the transmission gear ratios do (an electronic divider circuit that matches the ratios of the transmission) and feed that to the ECU. So I need mimic the transmissions output sensor.

    2) Simulate TPS = easy, turn the grip
    3) simulate Engine Temp = easy, a variable resistor
    4) simulate Engine vacuum = easy, a syringe to the sensor with a gauge to monitor pressure.
    5) O2 sensor, I doubt it looks at this, but I need to consider it might expect a signal. If so another simulator to make. A signusoidal wave floating on a DC signal. ~ possible ~

    WHY WOULD I DO THIS?? lol
    Well, I modified an OEM trigger wheel advancing the static timing about 5 degrees! The engine WAKES UP! It becomes VERY responsive to throttle input, it runs smoother, pulls harder and makes me grin more.

    Main reason; I really want to know if the advance curve cares what gear the bike is in. If it changes the curve based upon "what gear is selected" It could really come alive a rumor has it, 1,2,3 offer limited advance. Also the R6 runs about 5+ degrees more advance than our engine.

    If I find it has limited advance, I may ship off othe ECM to ECU Unleashed who I might add, does to Group Buys of ECU re-map.... Still not cheap tho.

    Meet Trigger:


    Its going to make countless MIL codes to the display, but I don't care. I'll have the fuel pump disconnected but let the plugs and injectors fire. Injectors MAY get unlpugged as I I suppose this could heat them with no fuel to cool them. IDK

    That's it for now. oh - you'll notice the trigger wheel is not symmetrical. The camel hump next to each other creates the variation shown on the O'scope. It locates number one. I'd like to make an electronic filter to detect it. So I have some reading to do unless someone knows how to extract that signature from the signal!

    Also - thanks Skooter!!!

    Like your scope Randy. I think I'll be picking up a Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth 3D Printing, Arduino, Robotics | Sainsmart

    Just for seeing performance on a project I'm working on and I've missed having one all these years. Will also be handy for seeing voltages (ac anomaly) on the bike and car.

    If you have a picture of the trigger wheel with a known dimension, I can scale it into Autocad and do a drawing so anyone can have a drawing showing how much to take out for the timing advance. Maybe an underbucket shim, 7.48mm to scale to?

    Hope mom is doing well...
    Last edited by Motogiro; 08-29-2014 at 12:30 PM.
    If you can't fix it by hitting it with a hammer, it's electrical!

    Clif
    SoCal Hoon

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  6. #14
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Quote Originally Posted by rk8950 View Post
    If I read this correctly to get 4 degrees you file the .021"? Wow the effort you put into this awesome. Did you ever figure out if it does anything to timing with a gear position sensor?
    That is incorrect Please read it again as I simply gave the tools to do the task. i.e. "Lets say the circumference of the locater tab/slot is 0.60" (guess)."

    You have to determine the radius out to the "center" of that locater nub from the center of the crank. Then the math for that distance. Not the hole diameter.

    Does that make sense?
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  8. #15
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Quote Originally Posted by Motogiro View Post
    Like your scope Randy. I think I'll be picking up a Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth Hantek 6022BE PC Based USB Oscilloscope Digital Storage 20Mhz Bandwidth 3D Printing, Arduino, Robotics | Sainsmart

    Just for seeing performance on a project I'm working on and I've missed having one all these years. Will also be handy for seeing voltages (ac anomaly) on the bike and car.

    If you have a picture of the trigger wheel with a known dimension, I can scale it into Autocad and do a drawing so anyone can have a drawing showing how much to take out for the timing advance. Maybe an underbucket shim, 7.48mm to scale to?

    Hope mom is doing well...
    Scopes are so helpful and know what's going on! Very good to have around!
    As for posting the info, I have all the math at home just never typed it in. The main reason being folks need to know what they're doing and how it can impact the engines life.

    BOTTOM LINE:
    ** IF ANY FILING ** results in moving the OD of the trigger MORE THAN 0.100", you've gone too far. So, its easy to check as long as while filing you don't rotate the engine.
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  10. #16
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    It would be easier for a hillbilly if I just knew how .000" to remove to advance 5 degrees lol. Did you ever figure anything out with gear position sensor?

  11. #17
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Quote Originally Posted by rk8950 View Post
    It would be easier for a hillbilly if I just knew how .000" to remove to advance 5 degrees lol. Did you ever figure anything out with gear position sensor?
    OK - as long as you accept the risk and know you need better fuel ALWAYS!
    When I get home later I'll look at my notes.

    When I couldn't constrain the reluctors (coil pickup sensor) output and trigger from the missing tooth I bailed. The voltage goes from 5V out at idle to 55+ Volts at 10,000 RPM. I bought the chip to do it directly but was focusing on how to shove coil packs into the valve cover and drive them with another driver.

    I'm good about starting projects and then realize I lack the tools (and patience) to perform some critical step before going on. Its just money right?!! lol
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  13. #18
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    oh yeah I know the risk, my main hobby is sbf with nitrous and it is very timing sensitve. My bike also has a almost full tank of 93 octane ready and waiting. If you want to pm the amount that is fine also.

    I can also relate to starting projects and not completing, yours are just a lot more high tech. Lol
    Thanks for the help

  14. #19
    FinalImpact (OP)
    2 Da Street, Knobs R Gone FinalImpact's Avatar
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    How I calculated amount to file off locator Tab:

    The OD of the trigger wheel is 2.475" (outer edge of humps)
    Dia (inches) * Pie/360 = In/per degree
    2.4750" * 3.14159 = circumference/360 = 0.021597" per degree (OUTSIDE EDGE).

    To advance 5.0 from its original location the outside must advance:
    0.021597"/deg * 4.0 degrees = 4.0 deg = 0.0863"
    0.021597"/deg * 5.0 degrees = 5.0 deg = 0.1079"
    ^^ YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS TO VERIFY YOUR WORK! ^^ i.e. set the finished trigger on the crank (hold with bolt). Rotate CCW and measure to the engine case forming a 90. Right down value. Rotate fully CW and measure to the case forming the same 90 angle. A dial indicator is best, but veneer calipers will work. The value should match your calculations above.

    Calculate how much to file off the Tab:
    To determine amount to remove from the Tab I broke it into 3 sections; the hole (ID1), the Slot (ID2) and the Tab (ID3) to determine the diameter to solve for. This is because we have no actual center or I'd to solve for the radius.

    ID1 = 0.6305" dia HOLE } measure hole w/calipers "direct"
    ID2 = 0.1050" X 2 SLOT } Total distance across open hole MINUS ID1. Multiply this by 2. "indirect"
    ID3 = 0.1955" X 1 TAB } measure length of Tab "direct"
    =======================
    Dia = 1.036" to the center of the Tab and an equal distance opposite.
    Meaning, it matters which section of the Tab we solve for, inner, middle or outer edge AND we are solving for a circle or the diameter ~ the red lines.
    Final Impact Winter project; playing w/trigger-trigger_s320-backside-solved-jpg


    Apply formula:
    1.036" * 3.1415/360 = 0.0090"

    4.0 * 0.0090"/deg = 0.036"
    4.5 * 0.0090"/deg = 0.040"
    5.0 * 0.0090"/deg = 0.045"
    6.0 * 0.0090"/deg = 0.054

    NOTE: the OEM Locator Tab is 0.0197" wide uncut. File the leading edge to obtain final thickness.
    4 deg adv: 0.197" - 0.036" = 0.161" final width 5 deg adv: 0.197" - 0.045" = 0.152" final width!

    There ya go. Use a dial indicator to verify amount rotated. Weld up the unused portion once you meet your desired amount of rotation.
    Measure OFTEN, REMOVE LITTLE and VERIFY amount of rotation!

    ** THIS IS A GUIDE ONLY! ** Results will vary!

    Good luck!
    Do acknowledge that I am NOT RESPONSIBLE for ANYTHING YOU DO TO YOUR VEHICLE!!!
    Last edited by FinalImpact; 08-26-2015 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Restore picture
    08 Raven w/a few mods...
    R6 Forks, R1 Rear Shock (revalved), 6 Ignition Advance, S1 CAT free Header, SS Mid-Pipe, 2Bro Exhaust, AIS block off plates, Bazzaz Z-Fi Fuel Controller & Z-AFM Data Logger, Air Box mod, CR10E Plugs, 48-Tooth Rear Sprocket, FZ1 Bars, Spider Grips, Adj levers, Powder Coated -Triple, Bars & Rear Sets, Solid mounted rear-sets w/knurled pegs, Dual Headlight, Tail Tidy, LED Combo Brake & Directionals, LED POD lights & Tinted PUIG Wind Screen!

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  16. #20
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    Re: Final Imppact Winter project; playing w/trigger

    Thanks for all the info. Gonna go mess with it here in a min, but wont be able to test it cause it is pouring rain out now

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