High side ??

Hey, now that im around 800 miles on my new red fz6, I am getting more confident in the higher rpm area. I dont mind cruising at 80-85 in short bursts as long as there are no cars around me. I'm more worried now that i'm going faster about the possibility/potentiality of a high side whilst cruising on a straight. Uneven pavement? rocks? branches? just bad luck? I dont have much exp riding bikes so i'm really a rookie with a screaming banshee under my thighs. Ok, thanks for any input. I read a lot about highsides and learned some of the ways to get out of one, or just lay er down. If your going in a straight line 80+ mph is it very very safe (unles) stray object? or over brakeing?

Only way as far as I know is to get the rear wheel locked not moving, and get it out of line with the front wheel, and then let it start spinning again.

At that point I believe the 90 degrees to the plane of motion like with a gyroscope kicks in and Whoop there you go.

So Dont lock the rear brake always keep it rolling and you have no real worrys.

80MPH is far from dangerous!!! I'm not a poster boy for safety by any means. telling you to keep it all safe and legal would be hypocritical coming from me. I do however have a lot of experience and have logged many 1000s of miles on two wheels. I have had close calls some of which were caused by being overconfident or "riding over my head" others were just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have learned from my mistakes and from the mistakes of others. the risk of high siding is greatest in a corner. Steve already covered the physics involved. I had a Katana 600 that had some "issues" I was riding one time and went into a full on tank slapper at 60+MPH and managed to ride it out. no high side.
the best advice I can give you is Relax and don't ride over your head.
riding a sportbike is supposed to be fun and exhilarating if your to paranoid you're more likely to panic, panic causes target fixation, target fixation causes you to ride right into whatever it is your trying to avoid, or make a mistake that can potentially hurt you. so quit worrying so much and ride with in your comfort level, and keep it fun!!!:Sport:

I've never even thought about high siding while going down the freeway. Like Danny said, most high sides happen in curves. Just take your time exploring your bike and your riding skills. Keep taking small steps and get comfortable with the new speeds then go for a little more. To be honest, if you're getting pumped by doing 80-90 MPH that's cool. You're probably getting the same adrenalin fix Danny gets when he goes 8,000,000 MPH on his blindingly fast red one. LOL

I think the most common ones are going into a cornor, panic braking, locking the rear, sliding the rear, letting up on the rear.

Ive only been riding for 4 years and the last couple not much, and i can say going out worrying about all the things that can go wrong make for a very tiring and not so enjoyable ride. Relaxing a bit and getting into the groove of riding becomes a much more exilerating and enjoyable experiance. Im still scared as hell of coming off, but shore dont ponder too much on it anymore, i just make sure my bike is up to scratch, and im covered in all the right gear.

hunterfz6 said:

Hey, now that im around 800 miles on my new red fz6, I am getting more confident in the higher rpm area. I dont mind cruising at 80-85 in short bursts as long as there are no cars around me. I'm more worried now that i'm going faster about the possibility/potentiality of a high side whilst cruising on a straight. Uneven pavement? rocks? branches? just bad luck? I dont have much exp riding bikes so i'm really a rookie with a screaming banshee under my thighs. Ok, thanks for any input. I read a lot about highsides and learned some of the ways to get out of one, or just lay er down. If your going in a straight line 80+ mph is it very very safe (unles) stray object? or over brakeing?

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Hi Mate, wrightme43 is right about the mechanism. Sports rider also makes a valid point about tank slappers. I had a high side in 1998. It was my own fault, I went into a round about to hot (70mph) and the rear wheel slide out. I counter steered into the slide but I was to late. It spat me off and I broke my tibia and fibula + 5 metacarpals. If it happens there isn’t to much you can do about it. So the moral of the story is, if we ride with in our limits then only bad luck can take you out.

awesome

Thankfully, when I take turns, i'm still going pretty slow, however I have no fear of leaning. I put my shoulder, head down into the turn and drop my knee. I love it. If I am ever going so fast into a turn I get hurt, I'im really doing something wrong. Thanks for the inspiring bit of confidence then.

No Rear Brake!

The dreaded "high side" does not usually involve the rear brake. In fact, I've never heard of any pulling that off at speed.

The highsides you see in MotoGP and your hear about from aggressive street riders involves spinning the rear TOO FAST whille in a turn (i.e., too much throttle too soon) causing it to break free and step out. When the rear tire suddenly regains traction (usually after the throttle has been reduced to a certain extent or in the worst case, chopped) it bucks the bike/rider towards the sky.

No do you do not have to worry about this unless you're riding extremely hard and leaning your FZ6 a lot.

sportrider_fz6 said:

80MPH is far from dangerous!!!

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WTF?
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Chris's Motorbike Page


By James R. Davis


More often than not, making a mistake while riding a motorcycle leads to misfortune, usually not serious, but sometimes fatal. One of the most deadly mistakes you can make is called doing a highside.




When a bike is 'dumped', or 'laid down', it falls DOWN, gravity assisted, all the way to the ground and ends up on its side. At slow speeds this usually results in little or no damage to the bike or the rider. Even at higher speeds, given that the rider is wearing appropriate protective clothing, most damage is restricted to the bike. In either case, these are known as doing a low-side - meaning that the rider exits the bike by going in the direction of the fall: down.

Obviously, doing a high-side means that you exit the bike by being thrown up and over the high side of the bike. That, in itself, is not particularly deadly, but it happens that the bike usually follows the rider into the air and then it comes back down, often on top of him. Not too many people survive such an encounter.

So how does a high-side happen? What causes it and what can you do to prevent it from happening?

To begin with, a high-side starts when you use so much rear brake pressure that you lock your rear wheel. If you are in a curve, (or if you have also applied your front brake while going in a straight line, or if there is substantial road camber, or severely unbalanced loading of the motorcycle), this starts the rear end sliding/skewing away from the direction the bike had been moving because traction is diminished on the rear tire (it has become 'sliding friction' - about 80% of what it was just prior to the skid) and that tire has begun to MOVE FASTER (in the direction of bike movement) than the front tire (centrifugal force, among others, is having its way.) The automatic, and correct, driver response to this situation is to turn the front wheel in the direction of the slide. [Actually, the front wheel will turn in the direction of the slide by itself - your job is merely to let it.] Let me be clear about that - I do not mean that the front-end ACTUALLY is steered or turns toward the slide but that it will APPEAR to be doing so. Without steering input the front-end will continue to point in the direction of bike travel while the rear-end slides to the side which makes it look like the front-end is being steered in that direction - and your job is NOT TO FIGHT these dynamics. But now he can make a mistake that can cost him his life - he can release the rear brake.

Let's look at what is happening at the instant his rear brake locks up causing his rear wheel to begin to slide and the instant that he releases pressure on the rear brake. Let's assume a rider is in a gentle turn at the time. (Riding in a straight line is exactly the same as soon as the rear wheel starts to skew to one side or the other of the front wheel track.) The bike is moving in the direction pointed to by the front tire at this instant. Note that the back tire is always 'scuffing' a little as it tries to get into the same direction pointed to by the front tire.

Now at this instant the rear brake locks and the rear wheel loses a significant amount of its traction (at least 20%). It begins to skew outward from the center of the curve.

The driver now allows the front wheel to turn in the direction of the slide. The direction of bike travel

Highside Dynamics

It is also cause by sliding the rear wheel like DefyInertia says. Most likely on the street though from my understanding is rearbrake too hot into a corner, or locking it avoiding cagers.

My understanding is that most on the street are caused by rear brake.
The guys that make it to motogp dont do that. They get paid to go fast, not make silly mistakes.

wrightme43 said:

It is also cause by sliding the rear wheel like DefyInertia says. Most likely on the street though from my understanding is rearbrake too hot into a corner, or locking it avoiding cagers.

My understanding is that most on the street are caused by rear brake.
The guys that make it to motogp dont do that. They get paid to go fast, not make silly mistakes.

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If you cause your bike to quasi-highside (and the same forcers won't be present using the braking method as will with the gas method) using the rear brake, you simply did something you should not have done (i.e., using the rear brake on a sportbike in a turn).

So a highside is a sliding rear tire that catches hard and tosses you. Ok.....so when does this most often happen in the real world and why are people always worried about it?

It could happen by making the bad decisoin to stomp on the rear brake in a turn....newb mistake?

It does happen every day to skilled riders who just barely use too much throttle and lean.

Experienced riders don't talk of the "dreaded highside" as the possiblity that they might make a newb mistake and stomp the rear brake, they are scared their rear is gonna step out due to throttle/lean and they won't be able to save it....happens to good street/track riders all the time.

My $0.02 :thumbup:
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DefyInertia said:

Experienced riders don't talk of the "dreaded highside" as the possiblity that they might make a newb mistake and stomp the rear brake, they are scared their rear is gonna step out due to throttle/lean and they won't be able to save it....happens to good street/track riders all the time.

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Define experienced.

both of the guys I usually ride with are, in my view, experienced. One is a guy who has been riding sport bikes for 6 years and grew up on the track. His high side wasn't a newb mistake, he locked the rear brake. not from lack of experience, but because he hit a little too hard.

The other guy could probably still be defined as a newbie, he's had his bike ('78 Honda CBK 750) since he was 16 and he's now 20, with the same bike. His high side did happen in a corner, at relatively low speeds, and came from locking the back tire.

According to me, I disagree with you that most come from spinning the back tire. In the motogp, yes. Among the millions of other riders, no.

jfreakman said:

Define experienced.

both of the guys I usually ride with are, in my view, experienced. One is a guy who has been riding sport bikes for 6 years and grew up on the track. His high side wasn't a newb mistake, he locked the rear brake. not from lack of experience, but because he hit a little too hard.

The other guy could probably still be defined as a newbie, he's had his bike ('78 Honda CBK 750) since he was 16 and he's now 20, with the same bike. His high side did happen in a corner, at relatively low speeds, and came from locking the back tire.

According to me, I disagree with you that most come from spinning the back tire. In the motogp, yes. Among the millions of other riders, no.

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Having only experienced one high side (one to many) I think that all the points raised are valid. I lost mine due to spin as I had cold tyres and ran out of lean angle. I do see the rationale of rear wheel lock causing said high side to. So what we have established hear are probably the two main causes of high side.

jfreakman said:

Define experienced.

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In this context, anyone who knows not to use their SPORTBIKE's rear brake when pushing hard in a turn.

jfreakman said:

His high side wasn't a newb mistake, he locked the rear brake. not from lack of experience, but because he hit a little too hard.

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I just not aware of any circumstance when a good rider would get on their rear hard in a fast turn....sounds like a panic inflicted move to me. Common in newbs?

What am I missing? Do you have more details on his highside?

jfreakman said:

According to me, I disagree with you that most come from spinning the back tire. In the motogp, yes. Among the millions of other riders, no.

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I made the mistake of mentioning MotoGP just because you get to see it so often their. People spin the rear, both saving it and highsiding, on both the street and track all the time. Are you familiar with "layin' down a darkie"?

From my experience at places like the Dragon and other twisty public roads and at the race track: millions spin into highsides; no one fast brakes into a highside.

Bottom line is, IMHO, if you caused your bike to highside by getting on the rear brake, you are not good at going fast on the pavement and should slow it down and get back to the basics of cornering and mid-corner adjustments. If you highsided by giving it too much gas you need to figure out how to get more traction or ride out your darkies............

I can post endless pictures and videos of people spinning into a highside. Can anyone find a picture or video of a skilled rider braking into one?

Just to be clear, like I said before, you can brake into one I just don't think it's common and know it's not what most riders fear when they think "highside".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportrider_fz6
80MPH is far from dangerous!!!

DefyInertia said:

WTF?

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you consider 80MPH on the freeway dangerous??? thats was his question"in a straight line". its not so much the speed that gets up its your judgement!!!
80MPH on the freeway = a safe cruising pace/ reasonable
80MPH in the twistys = a very fast rider/ no room for error

sportrider_fz6 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportrider_fz6
80MPH is far from dangerous!!!


you consider 80MPH on the freeway dangerous??? thats was his question"in a straight line". its not so much the speed that gets up its your judgement!!!
80MPH on the freeway = a safe cruising pace/ reasonable
80MPH in the twistys = a very fast rider/ no room for error

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no I don't, but going down at 80 would suck! I get what you meant now....it was clear all along, I just missed it...my bad.
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DefyInertia said:

no I don't, but going down at 80 would suck! I get what you meant now....it was clear all along, I just missed it...my bad.

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no problem!!!:thumbup:

DefyInertia said:

If you cause your bike to quasi-highside (and the same forcers won't be present using the braking method as will with the gas method) using the rear brake, you simply did something you should not have done (i.e., using the rear brake on a sportbike in a turn).

So a highside is a sliding rear tire that catches hard and tosses you. Ok.....so when does this most often happen in the real world and why are people always worried about it?

It could happen by making the bad decisoin to stomp on the rear brake in a turn....newb mistake?

It does happen every day to skilled riders who just barely use too much throttle and lean.

Experienced riders don't talk of the "dreaded highside" as the possiblity that they might make a newb mistake and stomp the rear brake, they are scared their rear is gonna step out due to throttle/lean and they won't be able to save it....happens to good street/track riders all the time.

My $0.02 :thumbup:

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hey defy just signed up here
i agree with you...except you dont have to be good at all to give her a bit too much throttle while leaned.
ive had about three really near high-sides and two of them have been from being too ham fisted. the other was from poor dampening (my theory) and from pushing sport-touring tires too hard.
never really hear about highsides from using the rear brake. most really good riders use it very sparingly AND know alot about what they're doing anyway.

i can safely say

When I approach twisties, and i'm not at all comfortable going over the posted speed limit for such, I always lower the gear before the turn, tap the front break, then lean in keeping a constant steady speed. I know when the bike is leaned, its using what, 8 out of 10 bucks on the tires anyway, so if you start breaking or throttleing you can easily bank rupt your 10 bucks of tires and spill it. It seems the more I see the more it becomes apparant that I have said it all along. Speed kills the inexperienced rider. I want to say also, trust the lean and as long as you are not going over the capabilities of the tires/bike/riding experience, its all good. Good input. you all be safe now!!!

DefyInertia said:

In this context, anyone who knows not to use their SPORTBIKE's rear brake when pushing hard in a turn.



I just not aware of any circumstance when a good rider would get on their rear hard in a fast turn....sounds like a panic inflicted move to me. Common in newbs?

What am I missing? Do you have more details on his highside?



I made the mistake of mentioning MotoGP just because you get to see it so often their. People spin the rear, both saving it and highsiding, on both the street and track all the time. Are you familiar with "layin' down a darkie"?

From my experience at places like the Dragon and other twisty public roads and at the race track: millions spin into highsides; no one fast brakes into a highside.

Bottom line is, IMHO, if you caused your bike to highside by getting on the rear brake, you are not good at going fast on the pavement and should slow it down and get back to the basics of cornering and mid-corner adjustments. If you highsided by giving it too much gas you need to figure out how to get more traction or ride out your darkies............

I can post endless pictures and videos of people spinning into a highside. Can anyone find a picture or video of a skilled rider braking into one?

Just to be clear, like I said before, you can brake into one I just don't think it's common and know it's not what most riders fear when they think "highside".

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okay, buddy, calm down.

I asked for your opinion, I got it. I'm not disagreeing that people spin into a high-side. I just disagree that most people do it that way.