Massachusetts Question 1

Caution: Politics Ahead

For the Mass folks. Obviously I'm a big supporter of Yes to Question 1 on the ballot in November. It's a vote whether or not to eliminate the state income tax. Yes to eliminate it, no to keep it.

I won't give any (biased) reasoning for it here but you can read up on it here: Home-Yes on Question 1 and here: No on Question 1 for two different sides.

Please vote your choice.

I can give you the NH take on this Tom. We don't have an income tax in NH. The state makes up for it in various ways but primarily with property taxes. I own a .56 acre in Dover with a 30'x28' Cape, finished 2nd floor and a 24'x24' detached garage. My taxes are pennies from $5k per year. This isn't taxes, it is RENT! Cause, if I do not pay it, I get evicted! No one really owns their property, do we?

Some people have opted to live in Maine while working in NH. But, they have to pay income taxes as well as property tax. Depending on the location, this can actually be cheaper than living in NH.

It's got a lot of great points, but just as many bad points. People who rent and do not pay property taxes will think it is GREAT! That is, until the landlord pushes the increase in taxes out to the monthly rent fee, then they may regret the vote. The same applies to condo owners who will see a two-fold increase, both on their physical unit and then the condo fees because the land taxes are also raised.

It will take time to sort out but MA will not just give up that much revenue and they will get it from other means. The only question is where the MA resident will be paying it from? Either way, it will be paid out in some fashion.

Just my thoughts as a NH "Live Free or Die" resident who lives this daily. I apologize if I seem negative in this but in the end, the Government will get their share.

I come from a state that has no state income tax, and it's great. One less tax form to file at the end of the year. Florida, Tenn. Wash, and Texas are the other states that come to my mind that don't any state income tax. That's why some of these states are so popular for people to retire and cash in their pensions or IRA's or 401's. No state income tax. Why give all that money when you cash it in?

FZ6inNH said:

It will take time to sort out but MA will not just give up that much revenue and they will get it from other means. The only question is where the MA resident will be paying it from? Either way, it will be paid out in some fashion.

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Thanks Eric. Though I am dismayed to see the word "revenue" when it is the less antagonist term for "TAXES". The premise that the state will just get it from other means is an issue steming from the government's idea that the amount they take is the "right" amount and that it is spent on the "right" things.

The point of this resolution is to shock the state government of Taxachusetts to change their ways, not to mention all state income tax goes against a founding principle for the reason of this country, double taxation. Patrick's been a flop, Romney was a spender (still holding hope that he inherited most of the issues - don't flame if you think otherwise) and the Democrat establishment has been woefully incompetent as usual. This vote was on the ballot for the first time in 2000. It received 45% approval.

Real time, real life example: I have to tell you, on the ride home from the NE FZ6 meet I completely noticed the difference in roadway quality on the way home. It was laughable and embarrassing. With an income tax, sales tax, business tax, parking tickets, tolls, vehicle emissions/inspection "taxes" every year, registration "taxes" etc etc, where the hell is this money going besides out of my pocket and into someone else's?

I don't usually comment about politics as it is very difficult to debate issues without being in the same room. However there is one irrefutable fact in regards to this issue: If the state of Massachusetts does not reduce spending by an identical amount as the revenue loss, the residents WILL pay more taxes somewhere else. Higher sales taxes, increased surcharges on fuel, funds diverted from programs to go to the general fund, etc.

As a resident of the most abusive tax collecting state in the nation I envy those of you with decent roads and great public schools. DON'T MOVE TO CALIFORNIA!!

tom5796 said:

Thanks Eric. Though I am dismayed to see the word \"revenue\" when it is the less antagonist term for \"TAXES\". The premise that the state will just get it from other means is an issue steming from the government's idea that the amount they take is the \"right\" amount and that it is spent on the \"right\" things.

The point of this resolution is to shock the state government of Taxachusetts to change their ways, not to mention all state income tax goes against a founding principle for the reason of this country, double taxation. Patrick's been a flop, Romney was a spender (still holding hope that he inherited most of the issues - don't flame if you think otherwise) and the Democrat establishment has been woefully incompetent as usual. This vote was on the ballot for the first time in 2000. It received 45% approval.

Real time, real life example: I have to tell you, on the ride home from the NE FZ6 meet I completely noticed the difference in roadway quality on the way home. It was laughable and embarrassing.

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I can certainly appreciate those views Tom. One of my outstanding issues is Government, be it federal, state or local, has never spent the money in the "right" places. I am a firm believer that all of Govenrnment can be cut in half and actually make them WORK 8 hours a day and be most productive. It sickens me to see our local payroll posted yearly and a secretary making over $100k a year while police and firemen, who put their LIVES on the line daily, are paid only a portion of that. Oh.... I could go on and on..... I rant, therefore I care! Nothing personal, just venting!

Ma does need some severe road work, doesn't it? I can't complain about the roads here. But, we have a lot less road to cover and more property taxes to cover it.

I guess my point is, please be careful regarding what you vote for. Sometimes the unforeseen consequences of a proposal that is passed can really come full circle and bite back.

If the income tax is eliminated then other taxes will just increase and benefits would probably decrease. The state needs to be fiscally responsible. There are areas/items that are due for change in order to reduce the funding required. Unfortunately in years when the economy was growing spending ratcheted right up there with it. We need elected officials that plan for the longer haul and budget with the expectation that there will be years of lower incoming revenue.


CT had no income tax but implemented it (about 20 years ago?). I remember other CT taxes going down when that happened. I wonder if we can learn anything from that process.

FZ6inNH said:

I guess my point is, please be careful regarding what you vote for. Sometimes the unforeseen consequences of a proposal that is passed can really come full circle and bite back.

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i appreciate that too, but after a long and careful look at the issue, I've decide to put my full backing behind the proposal. At the end of the day it makes "revenues" more local and less centralized. Case in point: Newton, MA. This place is building a $200 million Taj of a high school (one of 2 in the town). They hired an international renowned architect to design it! When there are probably 100s of other designs already paid for out there that could be duplicated. While much of it will be paid by Newton residents, through property tax and an override, you can be sure that state funding is helping too.

A consumption tax is one thing (use more, pay more. Like tolls), but mandated state extortion is another. The Center of Small Government has asked MA repeatedly to open their books for the people to scrutinize yet they deny it over and over. It's absolutely alarming. If one was to invest in a "public" company by buying stock they demand to see the books. This is the same IMHO.

interactive3 said:

CT had no income tax but implemented it (about 20 years ago?). I remember other CT taxes going down when that happened. I wonder if we can learn anything from that process.

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Because it worked in CT???

The state/local highway construction department in Mass. is so rife with corruption and incompetence it's beyond comprehension. On my commute, there is an intersection with a traffic light where two 2-lane roads meet. About 2 years ago they started widening the intersection to make turning lanes. This involved moving a couple of traffic lights, paving an extra 4 feet of lane on each side of the intersection and repainting. It took 18 months to complete this project, with crews on site 5 days/week! Mass. is the only state in the country to mandate police details, paid at overtime rates ($38/hour an up) at every construction job. The pay for the police details itself for this project must have been staggering. 2 cops x $38 x 40 x 75 weeks = $228,000 just for the police details to add a turning lane to one intersection.

About 5 minutes away from me, there is a 5 mile stretch of state highway the runs between our town and the next. They decided to widen the road by 3 feet. It took them 3 friggin years to widen and repave the road, and it was torn up for most of that time.

The state is repairing a bridge a few miles north of me on Rt. 1A. Its not a big bridge and only a 2 lane country road. The road will be closed for at least 3 years during repairs. Last word is two new major beams were accidentally "dropped" and destroyed during construction, further delaying the project. Local businesses are being destroyed in the process do the the road closure.

And of course the biggest boondoggle in the history of highway construction projects is the Big Dig tunnel through Boston. Originally estimated at $2.5 billion, it currently cost me, you and every person in the U.S. of A. $18 billion and rising and the damn tunnel leaks so bad its scary to drive through it. Collapsing roof panels have already killed one person.

And the people in charge of all this vote daily to increase their unbelievable high salaries and pensions.

This kind of crap, day in and day out makes it pretty hard not to vote for eliminating the income tax in Mass. Of course the vote won't mean a thing because the goverment has already completely ignored initiative petition votes in the past.

You can only get away with what you are allowed to get away with. These companies that 'BID' on these jobs always.. always bill out more. I can understand if something changes, but if there is a plan there should be very little overage charges.. I am not saying there are not incidentals but they bid low, once they have the job, MILK MILK MILK. There is no one telling them no. Only certain companies can do business with county and state organizations.. so even if there might be better prices out there.. they are not allowed to 'shop' around. It is disgusting. Even if you had someone overseeing the jobs.. they are all corruptable. That is my :rant:

Deb

JohnP said:

Of course the vote won't mean a thing because the goverment has already completely ignored initiative petition votes in the past.

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This vote is binding. It will be implemented if passed.

$75,000 to plan the removal 15 feet of curb.

Here's another one. About 10 years ago, our small town of about 4,500 residents decided to pay for and build a multi-million dollar library partially using state funds. This library was to replace our currently library packed full of old worn out books. The fact that no money was budgeted to pay for new books, or that the use of libraries in general were on a fast decline due to the internet didn't deter the citizens of our town from voting for the library, much of which was getting being paid by the "state" (as if that money didn't come from the very same pockets where local taxes came from).

"State" funded projects have many requirements attached. One of which is a minimum number of parking places for the size of the building. During the design, a stone wall was going to be removed to make room for the parking spaces. Well into the library construction, someone in-town found out about the stone wall. It turned out this stone was "historic" (being more than 50 years old). Can't have that removed.

The town hall and its parking lot is directly adjacent to the new library. It costs the town $75,000 to have an engineer alter the parking lot plans which included the removal of 15 feet of curb between the library and town hall parking lots instead of removing the stone wall. $75,000 for a simple parking lot plan change!

Here is a photo of what $75,000 buys you in Mass!
IMPORTANT: Note that the photo also accurately indicates the average parking lot usage (2-4 cars which includes library staff) at our fine new library now only 1/2 full of old worn out books!!!

tom5796 said:

This vote is binding. It will be implemented if passed.

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You mean just like the "binding" initiative petition vote, passed overwhelmingly by the voters, that was to eliminate the "temporary" income tax hike and lower the state rate back to 5%???????

Check your state tax form and let me know how that worked out!

John

they are going to get the money one way or another, if it is not income tax then it will be sales tax, property tax or something else,

reiobard said:

they are going to get the money one way or another, if it is not income tax then it will be sales tax, property tax or something else,

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Yes they are, but not willingly from me.

John

Re: $75,000 to plan the removal 15 feet of curb.

Lowest bidders = Highest Bilkers. It's the rule.

The Big Dig is the laughing stock of utterly failed projects. I have to ask, what's the commute times been "cut" to since it opened?

I really feel for you all in MA. You can still move to NH... it's not too late! Our economy will be totally failed in the next 3 years unless something changes. It's at that time, they want to institute a State Income Tax which they've been trying to get voted in every couple years for some time. The issue people have is, no one in Government will guarantee OTHER taxes will be reduced with this influx of State level income.

For me, I'll be paying nearly the same no matter where they take it from. The Government isn't going to simply give up that revenue, just find other ways to be sure they have the same steady income with enough to vote in their annual raises.

If they remove the tax then other taxes will increase, that has to be a given (even if overall taxes go down). The thing to think about is what other taxes may increase and how will those positively or negatively effect you. Everyone who works is taxed and if they aren't then that tax is is passed on to car owners? home owners? people who eat out? The likely hood is that if the tax is removed the same amoutn of money will now be collected but from a smaller group. Will you be part of that group.


I could right a thesis on the problems with government spending. Believe it or not I am an expert consultant in federal procurement and their information systems. Now please someone ask me why I ride my motorcycle to and from work.... so I don't have to think about the stupidity I see every day at work.

JohnP said:

You mean just like the \"binding\" initiative petition vote, passed overwhelmingly by the voters, that was to eliminate the \"temporary\" income tax hike and lower the state rate back to 5%???????

Check your state tax form and let me know how that worked out!

John

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Yes, I know we are still at 5.3%. The heat on this one is tremendous though. It is a much bigger deal going from 5.3 to 0 than to 5.

.25 acre in Mass, modest 1700 sq ft. 3br 110 year old house that I paid $135,000 for in 1992. No garage. Taxes are $3000/year. Taxes for your house, which is similar in size but on a bigger lot with the garage, would be around $4000/year. Sales tax on $20,000 car = $1000. Sales tax on FZ6 = $330. Sales tax on other purchases probably $1000/year. Auto/motorcycle excise tax about 4% the first year, decreasing after that. Fee's for my daughter to play highschool sports = $1000/year. Income tax = 5.5% of my income. State fees and tolls for everything else among the highest in the country.

Infortunately for NH, I think you are just a few Massachusetts transplants short of voting an income tax and/or sales tax into your great state.

FZ6inNH said:

I can give you the NH take on this Tom. We don't have an income tax in NH. The state makes up for it in various ways but primarily with property taxes. I own a .56 acre in Dover with a 30'x28' Cape, finished 2nd floor and a 24'x24' detached garage. My taxes are pennies from $5k per year. This isn't taxes, it is RENT! Cause, if I do not pay it, I get evicted! No one really owns their property, do we?

Some people have opted to live in Maine while working in NH. But, they have to pay income taxes as well as property tax. Depending on the location, this can actually be cheaper than living in NH.

It's got a lot of great points, but just as many bad points. People who rent and do not pay property taxes will think it is GREAT! That is, until the landlord pushes the increase in taxes out to the monthly rent fee, then they may regret the vote. The same applies to condo owners who will see a two-fold increase, both on their physical unit and then the condo fees because the land taxes are also raised.

It will take time to sort out but MA will not just give up that much revenue and they will get it from other means. The only question is where the MA resident will be paying it from? Either way, it will be paid out in some fashion.

Just my thoughts as a NH \"Live Free or Die\" resident who lives this daily. I apologize if I seem negative in this but in the end, the Government will get their share.

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