Interesting video on track body position / turning

I've been riding for a looong time, but admittedly track riding is new territory to me. I have attended CSS level 1, which has confirmed everything I knew about initiating lean: counter-steering.

This video makes no mention of using the handlebar whatsoever. What do you think?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynaS28BeH3k]Fastersafer-Ken Hill talking at the track about Body Position - YouTube[/ame]

The 3 steps make sense and had me thinking about what the guys said at the track day. I think in the vid he mentions "turn in or turn" during the 3 steps, but what about getting off the seat?

I think he's concentrating on the hierarchy steps to body position and counter steer is just a taken. The throttle relation as to when upper body transitions and roll-on out of the turn.

I've seen a few pics of members here on the forum that had excellent body position.

Yeah, I think these are experienced riders and CC is inferred.

I have never been on a track, but i was under the impression that one was meant to weight the outside peg while turning...

I find it very weird how people seem to be unable to agree on that!
At my license course i was taught to weight the inner peg, then when i did some research later on i noticed most people said to weight the outside peg, now it seems you can find "pros" who will tell advocate both!

Confusing...

Carlos840 said:

I have never been on a track, but i was under the impression that one was meant to weight the outside peg while turning...

I find it very weird how people seem to be unable to agree on that!
At my license course i was taught to weight the inner peg, then when i did some research later on i noticed most people said to weight the outside peg, now it seems you can find "pros" who will tell advocate both!

Confusing...

Click to expand...

I agree, I never think of weighting pegs and when I'm on a road, in a straight I sit in the middle of the seat. If you're shifting weight you will need to weight a peg but that will be previous to entering and executing the turn.
Once you enter the turn and you've shifted to that side of the bike your weight will naturally be on the turn's inside peg.
As with many things I think we can view them out of the full context and some times it's hard to express an idea/concept in just a few sentences.

Where's Misti?

Carlos840 said:

I have never been on a track, but i was under the impression that one was meant to weight the outside peg while turning...

I find it very weird how people seem to be unable to agree on that!
At my license course i was taught to weight the inner peg, then when i did some research later on i noticed most people said to weight the outside peg, now it seems you can find "pros" who will tell advocate both!

Confusing...

Click to expand...

Dont dwell on it too much, especially when you are on the bike, that causes accidents. Learn the physics and theory off of the bike then observe "how it is so" on the bike.

(1) Staying neutral, with the body positioned back and upright maintains the grip on the rear wheel for better traction, both for the rear tire, as well as keeping extra compression off of the front tire.

(2) When initiating the turn (the "turn-in"), a small countersteer and weighting (leaning / hanging off) on the inside takes place. this should be done instinctively and you probably dont even notice that you do it. the gyro effect from the countersteer works in conjunction with lean to pull one side of the bike toward the ground, thus initiating the turn.

(3) For stability in the midst of the corner, the weighting shifts to the outside peg some. this allows the rider to slightly alter the line. The centripetal force of the inertia of the bike counters those of the tipped bike to keep it upright. this is why the bike does not fall to the ground when cornering. weighting the outside peg and acceleration (when grip is maintained) increase the centripetal force, thus opening up the line.

Therefore, which peg is loaded depends on the alteration desired of the current line. its all simple physics, you can feel all of this on a bicycle even, although the acceleration bit is a tad more difficult to experience under your own power.

What's the gain on the chicken leg spread during braking? For hard braking I shift back but grip the tank (sometimes) as the seat alone wont hold me back. This way I'm not pushing as hard on the bars compared to not gripping tank.

I can see spreading your legs will transfer some weight rearwards, am I missing something else? Air brake effect, crotch cooling? Warning others?

motojoe122 said:

The 3 steps make sense and had me thinking about what the guys said at the track day. I think in the vid he mentions "turn in or turn" during the 3 steps, but what about getting off the seat?

Click to expand...

Didn't he say that 'never in the middle'. I noticed when I'm riding more sporty, I will typically not spend much if any time in the center of the seat.

FinalImpact said:

What's the gain on the chicken leg spread during braking? For hard braking I shift back but grip the tank (sometimes) as the seat alone wont hold me back. This way I'm not pushing as hard on the bars compared to not gripping tank.

I can see spreading your legs will transfer some weight rearwards, am I missing something else? Air brake effect, crotch cooling? Warning others?

Click to expand...

Stompgrip tank pads. You don't have think about it, and even if it's one leg that is still on the tank it helps a lot.

Erci said:

I've been riding for a looong time, but admittedly track riding is new territory to me. I have attended CSS level 1, which has confirmed everything I knew about initiating lean: counter-steering.

This video makes no mention of using the handlebar whatsoever. What do you think?

Click to expand...

When I first started riding I used the push on the inside bar to initiate counter steer for a turn. Then I had my first crash and after I really liked just shifting my weight and using the pegs to offset the load on the bike while leaning through a corner. I noticed I could keep the bike more upright while it seemed that by me being up on the balls of my feet I could allow the bike to do what it needed to do while I kind of floated, especially handy when hitting crappy road, manhole covers and gravel. I've noticed as I've started going faster and faster that I give less input through the handlebars and more by shifting my weight around.

FinalImpact said:

What's the gain on the chicken leg spread during braking? For hard braking I shift back but grip the tank (sometimes) as the seat alone wont hold me back. This way I'm not pushing as hard on the bars compared to not gripping tank.

I can see spreading your legs will transfer some weight rearwards, am I missing something else? Air brake effect, crotch cooling? Warning others?

Click to expand...

When the British superbike racing was on the anouncers talked a little about that. From what I understood, at the speed the riders are at going into turns it helps to shift the weight.

On that same topic, a majority of steering input is induced pushing on the tank with one knee. It happily falls in and we squirt out the other side. For snappier turns, bar input comes into play.
Fiz is no SS so I'm guessing the bar input is very different at their speeds.

Ssky0078 said:

When I first started riding I used the push on the inside bar to initiate counter steer for a turn. Then I had my first crash and after I really liked just shifting my weight and using the pegs to offset the load on the bike while leaning through a corner. I noticed I could keep the bike more upright while it seemed that by me being up on the balls of my feet I could allow the bike to do what it needed to do while I kind of floated, especially handy when hitting crappy road, manhole covers and gravel. I've noticed as I've started going faster and faster that I give less input through the handlebars and more by shifting my weight around.

Click to expand...

Your weight shifts are potentially *masking* the handlebar input at this point. Shifting weight to the inside is a great way to reduce lean angle for crappy roads, as you mentioned, but in terms of turning.. nothing makes the bike fall over quicker than a small, but a very deliberate countersteer.

FinalImpact said:

On that same topic, a majority of steering input is induced pushing on the tank with one knee. It happily falls in and we squirt out the other side. For snappier turns, bar input comes into play.
Fiz is no SS so I'm guessing the bar input is very different at their speeds.

Click to expand...

Have you watched Twist Of The Wrist? Particularly the part about counter-steering? Definitive proof that the only way a motorcycle can turn at speed is by CS. While the effect can be accomplished to a degree by using your body, nothing beats a press on the grip.

An easy way to test this, if you happen to have a safe place for it, would be to try to turn the bike with just your knee, while your hands hover over the bar. Then stick your knees out so they're nowhere near the tank and just give the grip a gentle press.
You can also try to stand up and jump on one peg (just like in the video).. the bike barely changes direction.

Oh and the bar input on SS at speed.. it's a feeling everyone motorcyclist should experience! Going from bolt-upright to leaned over and turning instanteniously! :cheer:

So much happens in the blink of an eye muscle reflex wise I'm guessing the only way I'll really know my actions are via video or personal instructor. Having not ridden since Nov, I'm having to think about what really happens as its all such fluent motion. Yes, bars do more than suspend the controls. lol
The point I was trying to make is I also deliberately push on the tank/pegs as input(s) to change our direction. One observation is that I know I push on the bars pretty hard to stand the bike up on exit. The sooner its up, full power can be applied.

FinalImpact said:

One observation is that I know I push on the bars pretty hard to stand the bike up on exit. The sooner its up, full power can be applied.

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Absolutely! In CSS, students are taught to pull the inside grip, rather than push the outside grip for the pick-up. When you do finally get to ride again, try to initiate lean using only counter-steering. When it's deliberate, it may shock you how quickly the bike can change direction and prove that nothing else is required to make it turn.

I love the part of the video (TOTW) with 2 riders on the no-BS bike (no body steering) with coach riding pillion.. showing that he can make the bike turn by pressing the grip with 1 finger in either direction. :thumbup:

Erci said:

Your weight shifts are potentially *masking* the handlebar input at this point. Shifting weight to the inside is a great way to reduce lean angle for crappy roads, as you mentioned, but in terms of turning.. nothing makes the bike fall over quicker than a small, but a very deliberate countersteer.

Click to expand...

I've thought about the *masking* effect. I do pay close attention to how much bar input is happening versus my weight shifting. I'm pretty sure it's very little bar input. The countersteer I use I feel is to balance/match/meet the effects of the weight shift. And yes when needed a little firmer push on the inside tightens up the line through the corner.

So I never found any editing software to brighten the video I made. That alone will discourage some from watching but I may post up for "picking on" (which will occur!) as I was naughty. Its pretty dark overall, but you'll see the narrow roads, kaput deer on the roadside, S turns, switch-backs, steep hills, etc and get a feel for what I do as a rider, right wrong or otherwise. View is through the screen so its best guess as to rider input other than the Rev's.

EDIT:
PS - I could hang off seat, but I don't feel there is a need for this on the street. Speeds are in-excess as it is and should leo pass, that's a sure fire way to get fined. So it'll be a rare sight anyone finds me doing that until the track is involved.

Ssky0078 said:

I've thought about the *masking* effect. I do pay close attention to how much bar input is happening versus my weight shifting. I'm pretty sure it's very little bar input. The countersteer I use I feel is to balance/match/meet the effects of the weight shift. And yes when needed a little firmer push on the inside tightens up the line through the corner.

Click to expand...

When you say "weight shift", do you mean sliding your butt off in the direction of the turn, or something else?
Body position should be about how you want to get through a turn .. going for speed, slow speed maneuver, minimizing lean.. whatever you are trying to achieve.
It should not be used to initiate turns. This is why I thought the explanation in the video was questionable. But as has been mentioned, counter-steer was implied.. everything else is in addition to it.

FinalImpact said:

So I never found any editing software to brighten the video I made. That alone will discourage some from watching but I may post up for "picking on" (which will occur!) as I was naughty. Its pretty dark overall, but you'll see the narrow roads, kaput deer on the roadside, S turns, switch-backs, steep hills, etc and get a feel for what I do as a rider, right wrong or otherwise. View is through the screen so its best guess as to rider input other than the Rev's.

Click to expand...

Nice! But as you said, shooting ahead through screen is just a guess as to what you're doing. Mount the cam on the back and point it forward! Butt cams work better for technique assessment.

Erci said:

Absolutely! In CSS, students are taught to pull the inside grip, rather than push the outside grip for the pick-up. When you do finally get to ride again, try to initiate lean using only counter-steering. When it's deliberate, it may shock you how quickly the bike can change direction and prove that nothing else is required to make it turn.

I love the part of the video (TOTW) with 2 riders on the no-BS bike (no body steering) with coach riding pillion.. showing that he can make the bike turn by pressing the grip with 1 finger in either direction. :thumbup:

Click to expand...

The thing is that he tries to hard to convince people that body steering doesn't work whatsoever!

Which is obviously BS:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuRlxpC9l-g]No Steering input...Body weight steering only... - YouTube[/ame]