Track riding - novice group - life after intro

Erci

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Absolute Cycles breaks down their riders into 4 groups:

Intro, novice, advanced and expert. (not sure if it's the same for all organizations).

Last Saturday was my 2nd time riding with ACE and since I was evaluated last time and lost my red shirt, I was told I could ride in novice group.

My 1st session was predictably slow. This was on a new-to-me track (Lightning) and I was taking my time learning the lines, picking out visuals and just getting general feel for the track. Other riders were flying by, and I was totally fine with that.

For my 2nd session, I dropped down to intro to ride with my friends and to see if the lines I chose on my own were close to the lines ridden by coaches.

For my 3rd session, I went back to novice group and while my overall speed increased.. everyone else in the group seems to have flipped the switch to full-on race mode. I've no issues with people passing me, but passing within a foot of me? On the inside, pushing me wide? Passing on the outside is allowed in novice group, but inside passers should have been flagged, no?

I felt anything, but safe, and wasn't having fun at all. I actually decided to pit in, after 3 laps and just as I was doing so, another red flag went up (3rd of the day, in novice group). These guys were crashing left and right all day!!

I overheard that they split riders up within the intro group. There were 4-5 faster people. So I dropped down to intro and got on the back of the faster 5 (pun intended :D ) and had a great time for the rest of the day (2 more sessions).

My question is this: how can I safely continue to have fun and make progress without being what felt like a standing obstacle on the track?! Is it normal for novice group to ride like this?
 

Misti

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Absolute Cycles breaks down their riders into 4 groups:

Intro, novice, advanced and expert. (not sure if it's the same for all organizations).

Last Saturday was my 2nd time riding with ACE and since I was evaluated last time and lost my red shirt, I was told I could ride in novice group.

My 1st session was predictably slow. This was on a new-to-me track (Lightning) and I was taking my time learning the lines, picking out visuals and just getting general feel for the track. Other riders were flying by, and I was totally fine with that.

For my 2nd session, I dropped down to intro to ride with my friends and to see if the lines I chose on my own were close to the lines ridden by coaches.

For my 3rd session, I went back to novice group and while my overall speed increased.. everyone else in the group seems to have flipped the switch to full-on race mode. I've no issues with people passing me, but passing within a foot of me? On the inside, pushing me wide? Passing on the outside is allowed in novice group, but inside passers should have been flagged, no?

I felt anything, but safe, and wasn't having fun at all. I actually decided to pit in, after 3 laps and just as I was doing so, another red flag went up (3rd of the day, in novice group). These guys were crashing left and right all day!!

I overheard that they split riders up within the intro group. There were 4-5 faster people. So I dropped down to intro and got on the back of the faster 5 (pun intended :D ) and had a great time for the rest of the day (2 more sessions).

My question is this: how can I safely continue to have fun and make progress without being what felt like a standing obstacle on the track?! Is it normal for novice group to ride like this?

I don't have a lot of experience with track days for the same reason. I have never felt particularly safe and I don't enjoy being passed that closely by riders that don't have the same skill level as the people I'm used to racing against.

Perhaps a riding school is in order? As a coach with the California Superbike School I can say that we take the utmost care in ensuring that our students are safe and comfortable on track. We have a VERY STRICT passing rule and all coaches on track and every corner worker keeps a careful lookout for any infractions. We teach a seminar before each riding session so that you have one specific thing to work on each time you are out riding and the coaches lead and follow the students every session out and then debrief afterwards.

It might be beneficial for you to get some proper instruction on riding technique in a more controlled environment before heading to another track day. That way you have some solid skills to practice (the school will improve your riding tremendously!!!) and you have a bit more experience with track riding- but in a more controlled environment.

Let me know if you have any questions about the school and I'll fill you in.

Hope that helps!

Misti
 

Erci

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Thanks, Misti. I did do level 1 of CSS and most definitely felt much safer there. I hope to do level 2 (and maybe 3) next season, but I am hoping to not have to limit my track riding to CSS (I'd have to get another mortgage LOL!)

Perhaps I'm better off staying in intro until I feel I'm well above it (if that ever happens).
 

MattR302

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I think it's more to do with the organization that runs the track day. I've only done 3 days with Tony's, never other orgs, but they've all been great. Tony's caters to street riders, not racers looking for some practice laps. Even in the faster groups, passing isn't allowed on the inside of corners.
 

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I've no issues with people passing me, but passing within a foot of me? On the inside, pushing me wide? Passing on the outside is allowed in novice group, but inside passers should have been flagged, no?

Kick the bastard if he is close :)

Are there any defined rules of passing on ACE events ? Trackdays I've did usually have the same for novice: no inside passing on turns, 6ft cushion zone.

My question is this: how can I safely continue to have fun and make progress without being what felt like a standing obstacle on the track?! Is it normal for novice group to ride like this?

It's normal novices often ride above their heads and crashing.

Crazy people in novice groups - it happens. I wouldn't mind to talk with grid master about rider who makes some unsafe maneuvers on a track. Sometimes you have to bring it to the attention of organizers and they will take care of it.

Usually it's more important for them that anyone felt uncomfortable rather than someone say "oh, that guy was riding so slow so I had to pass".

I personally believe if you're faster/more experienced rider it's YOUR responsibility to not make other people feel in danger around you. You should be able to find place to pass them safely without spooking them. But that's me...
 

Misti

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Thanks, Misti. I did do level 1 of CSS and most definitely felt much safer there. I hope to do level 2 (and maybe 3) next season, but I am hoping to not have to limit my track riding to CSS (I'd have to get another mortgage LOL!)

Perhaps I'm better off staying in intro until I feel I'm well above it (if that ever happens).

I understand not limiting your track riding to CSS ;) You may find that doing another level or two will really help up your overall confidence to be able to ride track days better with less fear. Level 2 specifically focusses on visual skills and those are SOOOO important to track and road riding.

Staying in intro a little longer until you feel more confident might help as well. I did an article about "mistakes new track riders make" that might be helpful to read. You can find it here:

Otherwise you may want to try a different track organization.

I think it's more to do with the organization that runs the track day. I've only done 3 days with Tony's, never other orgs, but they've all been great. Tony's caters to street riders, not racers looking for some practice laps. Even in the faster groups, passing isn't allowed on the inside of corners.

Different organizations will run the days differently as you mention. Might be worth while to find a track day that specializes more in novice or new track riders, or one that has stronger rules on passing? Maybe ask around to find out the right fit for you.

Let me know if you have any more questions, great topic btw.
 

Erci

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Staying in intro a little longer until you feel more confident might help as well. I did an article about "mistakes new track riders make" that might be helpful to read. You can find it here

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing :thumbup:
 

Erci

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This one fits with the topic as well: School or Track Day? | MotoMom

Another great one! The one part that does not apply to me is: "On the one hand, a school might make sure that you don’t develop any bad habits and ensure that you are getting solid direction but on the other, going in with only a few months riding experience might mean you are wasting the instructors time."

I did start by taking level 1 of California Superbike School and I'm VERY glad I did it, rather than just doing a track day. Mind you, I've been riding for over 25 years (though to be fair, only about the last 8 years can be considered proper and legal :D ).

With all that street riding experience and MSF training, much of what I learned in CSS felt brand new to me. Track riding is drastically different from street, in my opinion. While fundamental control operation does not change, and basic skills carry over directly (like slowing before the turn, initiating lean and then progressively rolling out throughout the turn), so many other things feel *new*. Corners are taken at very different speeds, instead of search/evaluate/execute, you learn to look for your braking point and turn-in point and when you're taking blind curves (going up a hill, for example), you're not asked to imagine there's a truck blocking your path on the other side.

I feel I was much better prepared for my first track day after doing level 1 of CSS. I knew what to concentrate on.. what to work on. Not to say that it's wrong to go straight for the track day, but I'm glad I started with school and I am looking forward to doing next levels so I can make safe, steady progress.
 

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Not all trackday orgs are created equal. Talk to others and shop around. We take safety very seriously. Hook up with a coach for some one on one. That's what they are there for and that is what they love to do. Swap coaches from morning to afternoon for a different perspective. And, don't be shy about mentioning unsafe riding to the director.
 

ctbandit

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Not all trackday orgs are created equal. Talk to others and shop around. We take safety very seriously. Hook up with a coach for some one on one. That's what they are there for and that is what they love to do. Swap coaches from morning to afternoon for a different perspective. And, don't be shy about mentioning unsafe riding to the director.

:Im With Stupid:

I've heard a variety of reviews but I believe with track day orgs like anything else you get what you pay for.
 

Karate.Snoopy

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:Im With Stupid:

I've heard a variety of reviews but I believe with track day orgs like anything else you get what you pay for.

+1
Look up Tonys Track Days or Boston Moto, they do track days in NY and NJ and are a very popular organisation here in NE. Their track days are oriented more toward street than track.
 

Erci

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Their track days are oriented more toward street than track.

What does that mean, exactly? There was nothing *street* about the 2 days I've done with ACE. Really my only issue was being out of my element (much much slower than everyone else in novice group, at least on that particular day) and the fact that they didn't seem to enforce their own passing policy, but sounds like it's something I just need to get used to.
I do plan to try other organizations to see how they differ from one another.
 

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Just came across this thread, and thought I'd check in.

As mentioned, we try to run a trackday that beginning trackday riders are comfortable at - yet still have a place for fast riders that are also responsible.

Unfortunately, we are not running the NJ track this coming year. We'll be running at the NY Safety Track and also at the new track in Thompson, CT.

Hope to see some of you on the track!

Tony
 
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Misti

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Another great one! The one part that does not apply to me is: "On the one hand, a school might make sure that you don’t develop any bad habits and ensure that you are getting solid direction but on the other, going in with only a few months riding experience might mean you are wasting the instructors time."

I did start by taking level 1 of California Superbike School and I'm VERY glad I did it, rather than just doing a track day. Mind you, I've been riding for over 25 years (though to be fair, only about the last 8 years can be considered proper and legal :D ).

With all that street riding experience and MSF training, much of what I learned in CSS felt brand new to me. Track riding is drastically different from street, in my opinion. While fundamental control operation does not change, and basic skills carry over directly (like slowing before the turn, initiating lean and then progressively rolling out throughout the turn), so many other things feel *new*. Corners are taken at very different speeds, instead of search/evaluate/execute, you learn to look for your braking point and turn-in point and when you're taking blind curves (going up a hill, for example), you're not asked to imagine there's a truck blocking your path on the other side.

I feel I was much better prepared for my first track day after doing level 1 of CSS. I knew what to concentrate on.. what to work on. Not to say that it's wrong to go straight for the track day, but I'm glad I started with school and I am looking forward to doing next levels so I can make safe, steady progress.

Cool. I put the part about "maybe wasting the track instructors time" in the article because I find that it is a misconception that a lot of riders have. They tend to think that they need to be at a certain level of riding in order to take CSS because they are worried about being too slow or wasting the instructors time but that just doesn't apply at our school.

At CSS, as long as you can operate the motorcycle you are fine to come to the school and in my opinion as you said, it is better to come the the school as fresh as possible so that you can learn good foundation and proper riding technique right off the bat instead of having bad habits that need undoing. I think this sets you up for being able to handle track days in a better, safer and more methodical way. Start at the beginning and work your way up right ;)

:cheer:
 
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