Had my first accident, hope to gain insights into cornering

I was taking a left turn at very low speed yesterday morning. The double yellow lines were wet with morning dew. Now the stupid begins.

I leaned my body off the bike, and when my rear tire crossed the double yellows it immediately slid out -- suddenly I was leaned way over, and the next thing I knew the bike was sliding away from me. Both myself and the bike were fine (aside from the long suffering stator cover). I picked the bike back up using a technique I read about in an Allstate advertisement -- don't tell anyone, they'll laugh at me.

For anyone that doesn't know, you first push it back onto its tires. Then turn your back to the bike with your butt inline with the seat, grab the passenger grab handles and the bars, then lift with your legs. It worked.

First off, I think leaning off the bike was a bad idea in that situation. In fact I suspect it was dumb enough that even non-haters might hate. I was taught that at 'low' speed you should lean counter to the bike -- that is, stay upright while the bike leans. I have been wondering for some time at what speed to stop leaning counter. I think I learned that the speed I was turning at yesterday was still low enough to be doing that. I was laboring under the impression that counter lean was only for parking lot speed maneuvers, but I think that's wrong now. Experienced riders please give input! On the plus side I may have gained a good insight into when to lean and in what way.

Second, I know I shouldn't have crossed the double yellows going into that turn. In case it wasn't clear, I passed the double yellows on the road I was turning into. I formally request that you don't hate me.

In general the speed difference to do what you're calling counter-lean and actually leaning in a corner is around 5-15 mph (parking lot speeds). I pretty much liken it to riding a bicycle at those speeds. This is not a hard fast rule, just something that I noticed.

If you get a sudden increase in lean angle of the bike you can pull up on the bars similar to like a bicycle and sometimes save it.

If you were cornering at an actual roadway speed (approximate 25 mph) or more then I don't get what happened to you, other than you hit the yellow lines and lost rear traction/slid for a second. If you have good body position and throttle control then you should have been able to recover

Only need to watch the first :20 seconds of this vid
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F071LVArE7U]THE CORNERING BIBLE HQ 'La biblia de las curvas' Part2 HQ.avi - YouTube[/ame]

Agree with Ssky regarding body position. It's very difficult to tell exactly what went wrong. Can you remember if you were on the throttle at the moment the rear tire hit the line? If you were doing a slow steady roll-on, it shouldn't have gotten upset much, if at all. If you were engine braking, or accelerating a bit too much.. it would be more likely to break loose.

A good mid-corner technique, which is easy enough to execute at street speeds is to stand the bike up or decrease lean angle as much as you can to cross the slick patch and then re-lean. Paying close attention to road surface is critical to pulling this off though. If you spot it well in advance, it's a stress-free move.

Very glad you're not hurt!

The paint they tend to use to paint most road markings tends to be slippery even when dry, unless it is the variety that has a grittiness to it (those are more expensive and thus less utilized). If it's even a little wet, forget about it.

I bet that is the biggest contributing factor. As Erci said, try to lessen the side-force on the tire by standing the bike up a bit, if you are able, when you see a hazard like that.

P.s. - you only have to counter lean or whatever you call it at VERY low speeds ...

Glad your OK and the bike's OK! Thanks - good lesson! I try and avoid paint lines ALL the time just so I'll miss them when they are wet. Saw a vintage bike go down on the track in the rain - he was being super cautious and entered a tight corner too slow and wound up cutting it too close! Moment he touched the painted line he went down. No hurts cause he was going soooooo slow.

Gave away the OEM tires on my new bike because I didn't like the way they didn't have traction in the wet (rolling on the throttle at 70 in 3rd was all it would take to break them loose). Told the guy I gave them to -saw him while later and asked how he like the tires. "They are great but you weren't kidding about the wet performance, they slip on paint lines with dew on them." He's a very experienced rider.

whenever I lean opposite of the bike its at SUPER low speed, like parking lot or making a U-turn type low speed where I am turning the "wheel" instead of counter steering like in normal cornering. that makes sense? I feel like I am not explaining myself properly...........

What do you think the primary cause was and what were the contributing factors?

i've slid many times on painted lines and manhole covers, my bike has always recovered. I think the key is to stay calm and the hold your line and speed, it also helps if the engine isn't lagging, so the wheel doesn't suddenly spin up.

I've even had the back slide around after a little too much gas on a wet road, clutch in, recover and carry on (and change into a spare pair of underwear :thumbup

marke14 said:

The paint they tend to use to paint most road markings tends to be slippery even when dry, unless it is the variety that has a grittiness to it (those are more expensive and thus less utilized). If it's even a little wet, forget about it.

I bet that is the biggest contributing factor. As Erci said, try to lessen the side-force on the tire by standing the bike up a bit, if you are able, when you see a hazard like that.

P.s. - you only have to counter lean or whatever you call it at VERY low speeds ...

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Several years ago, while on my FJR, we were pulling out of a MC shop onto a busy 6 lane highway (lots of painted lines). Late morning, nice and dry, no grease, etc. Pulled out with a moderate amount of throttle and some lean, back end kicked out about 6-8", then grabbed once it got to pavement again. Too much torque/angle, not enough grip between the tire and paint....

Didn't go down, but certainly caught my attention...

Painted lines are not your friend....

I'd say you hanged your body when you shouldn't have and added additional weight to pull the bike to the ground, I'd say I "hang" only at higher speeds 30 mph doesn't require leaning too much anyways people tend to forget and over lean even at lower speeds

First off thanks for all the discussion and input! It's cool how this forum has experienced riders and BRC coaches both willing to help.

MG-242 said:

What do you think the primary cause was and what were the contributing factors?

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I think the guys in the discussion pretty much hit the nail on the head. Probably too much lean when going over the painted lines, which were already wet with morning dew. I also hit the lines with my rear tire closer to parallel to the lines than perpendicular. Poor leaning technique might have contributed as well, I'm not sure.

I was in second gear at the time, accelerating, and I heard the engine rev up a bit when it broke loose. Speaking of which, my gas tank leaked a little fuel while the bike was on its side. Is my fuel tank damaged?

Water Bear said:

my gas tank leaked a little fuel while the bike was on its side. Is my fuel tank damaged?

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It's most likely fine. Did it get badly dented? Every time I see bike down (and I've probably seen ~50 in the last 3 years), there's always fluid on the ground. Sometimes just gas.. sometimes coolant too. Once the bike is lifted and wiped off, I've never seen one continue to leak. (possible.. I've just never seen it happen).

Gotta be carefull when it's wet, even more careful on a cold tire. Get it warmed up before you really do anything.

Ps. And some msrc instructors may agree, that the difference in counter leaning and leaning is actually not that much of a difference. (Atleast it's what I took away from my sport bike course) at slower speeds, I've drifted by accident after pulling out on a street after washing it. I just rolled off slowly so it wouldn't be so violent when it caught.

I've had one incident involving rainy weather + white lines. I remember they did mention that at the driving school. What I did was I started from a red light and did a sharp turn at very low speed. I was leaning the bike and the rear tire crossed a white line. It slid out and I managed to stay upright just by reflex. I'm definitely more careful since and as other have said it was unnecessary to lean the bike in that situation.

Water Bear said:

First off thanks for all the discussion and input! It's cool how this forum has experienced riders and BRC coaches both willing to help.



I think the guys in the discussion pretty much hit the nail on the head. Probably too much lean when going over the painted lines, which were already wet with morning dew. I also hit the lines with my rear tire closer to parallel to the lines than perpendicular. Poor leaning technique might have contributed as well, I'm not sure.

I was in second gear at the time, accelerating, and I heard the engine rev up a bit when it broke loose. Speaking of which, my gas tank leaked a little fuel while the bike was on its side. Is my fuel tank damaged?

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Yep, at any given time there is a finite amount traction available and the combination of cornering forces (from leaning), braking forces or accelerating forces all combine and add up to more than is available. The stripes, crossings, arrows, tar strips, you name it can greatly reduce the available traction. Unfortunately, sometimes, you learn this by experience, but these are the things that you store in the back of your mind and are aware of when it happens again. The positive is that it sounds like you didn't chop the throttle which might have caused a high-side. This is one of the Survival Reactions that Keith Code mentions in his book (Twist of the Wrist 2). Going to neutral throttle usually helps, but with very fine adjustments. And as always, my preference is to low side rather than high side as it is a shorter distance to fall

Chalk it up to a learning experience. Glad you came out of it OK.

I imagine the tank is fine and most likely you just spewed a little out the vent hole when it was on its side.

:thumbup:

FZ6Bandit said:

Ps. And some msrc instructors may agree, that the difference in counter leaning and leaning is actually not that much of a difference.

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I'm not getting this statement. There is a major difference between leaning with the bike versus leaning against the bike. Leaning with the bike at very slow speeds does not work too well. Leaning against the bike at higher speeds will unnecessarily increase lean angle, thereby reducing clearance and traction reserve.

Did I misunderstand you?

I mean at slower speeds or in unagressive riding, they both get the job done.

And by slower speeds I'm talking speed limit

You mentioned that you rode over the double yellow lines? Body position may have been a contributing factor, but more importantly I would focus more on your line. Outside in and back out, reduce the radius of the curve or also known as the race line or finding the apex. Any road with curves allows you to practice on improving your lines, and at the same time practicing your throttle control by maintaining or applying a gradual roll on throttle.

FZ6Bandit said:

I mean at slower speeds or in unagressive riding, they both get the job done.

And by slower speeds I'm talking speed limit

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Oh I see. If that's the case, it should be "lean with the bike" or "lean more than the bike". No counter leaning. And I agree.. most of the time there is no need to lean more than the bike for non-aggressive riding.

i can also recommend a day of motocross to get some experience with handling sliding around, though the "if in doubt, gas it out" doesn't always apply on the road