COW, Hanging off, knee out - questions after ARC

Eric mentioned it - new thread it is!

Background on me - the ARC I took yesterday was my first MSF course in the year and a half I've been riding. I've watched countless technique videos and read books, practiced on my own in lots and on the street. Took the MFS ARC yesterday and learned some things! Also took my chicken strips from about 3/4 of an inch to half a mm by the end of the day


My natural instinct when cornering aggressively is to scoot my butt over a bit, move my head towards the mirror, elbow down and knee out, hugging the tank with my outside leg and looking through the corner.

COW was taught in the ARC, it seemed good but to me it felt more natural to hang off more than it allowed. The main thing was that I would point my knee out - I know that's mainly to just be a feeler when you're leaned over more to avoid going too far - but it feels better for me.

One of the things the rider coaches emphasized was that these were just tools, not telling us when to use each specific technique. Hanging off is more aggressive, so in traffic it might not be best but it does allow you to decrease the lean angle of the bike even more, which is always nice on the poor quality roads around me.

Anyway, I don't have any real questions, but just looking to start a conversation about differences and preferences in the techniques.

I too have done this before, mostly when you mentioned -on a loose surface. I avoid doing things I am not 99% on in traffic or typical driving situations as is it another distraction between me and properly operating the controls if a situation arises. Will that change one day? Maybe. It is however a technique that you cannot exercise with a passenger which I have often.

BajaBob said:

It is however a technique that you cannot exercise with a passenger which I have often.

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I have to disagree with you, Bob. My wife is used to being a passenger on a spirited ride. I have no problems sliding off the seat into turns (about 1/2 cheek off) with her on the back. It's a very good idea to discuss it before the ride instead of just surprising your passenger and as anything else, building it up progressively is a good idea :thumbup:

Few things come to mind:

I find that the *need* to shift my weight into a turn varies quite a bit, depending on the bike I ride. For example, on FZ6, I hardly ever felt like I needed to do much with my upper body, besides just keeping it in line with the bike lean/angle. In contrast, on FZ1 I find shifting my COW into turn to be almost essential if I want to maintain *brisk* cornering speed.

lawlberg said:

My natural instinct when cornering aggressively is to scoot my butt over a bit, move my head towards the mirror, elbow down and knee out, hugging the tank with my outside leg and looking through the corner.

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All of the above sounds good, but as you mentioned, there's no need to stick the knee out (on the street). Just as you stated, it's a gauge.. a feeler.. and if you're leaning over that far on the street with your butt 1/2 off the seat.. you're probably moving way faster than you should be.
When you're shifting your butt off into turn, how close is your crotch to the tank? If it's right up against it, shifting off the seat will cross you up and it'll feel like sticking the knee out will straighten you out. I'm wondering if that's the reason?
Your butt should be quite a ways back in the seat before you shift off. Make a fist and place it on the seat, up against the tank and slide forward to it. That's a pretty good gauge of where you should be positioned for slide-of-the-seat riding technique.
The knee of the outside leg, which you use to hold yourself on the bike (as you said), should be locked into the groove in the tank. If your thigh is on the tank on the outside leg, that's another indicator that you're too close to the tank.
If you were indeed too close to the tank, I'm curious if your knee will still want to step out when you start keeping your butt further back.

You mentioned that shifting COW into turn decreases lean angle. Less lean angle = more reserve, right? Why would we ever not take advantage of this technique then?

Erci said:

I have to disagree with you, Bob. My wife is used to being a passenger on a spirited ride. I have no problems sliding off the seat into turns (about 1/2 cheek off) with her on the back. It's a very good idea to discuss it before the ride instead of just surprising your passenger and as anything else, building it up progressively is a good idea :thumbup:

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Don't get me wrong, we enjoy our rides, but when the wife is on and the weight is much different there is a lot less "spirited" riding.

Erci said:

Few things come to mind:

I find that the *need* to shift my weight into a turn varies quite a bit, depending on the bike I ride. For example, on FZ6, I hardly ever felt like I needed to do much with my upper body, besides just keeping it in line with the bike lean/angle. In contrast, on FZ1 I find shifting my COW into turn to be almost essential if I want to maintain *brisk* cornering speed.

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I will say this, in any situation where the road conditions are questionable, shift your weight off the seat and keep the bike more upright. I crashed the Fz6 because like you I really like to stay in the seat and feel the bike swing through corners. I hit the loose gravel/cinder in the road and washed out the rear, almost high sided, lost my line and had to lay the bike down.
On my Fz1 I almost always slide half off the seat now, in fact one day I was going a little fast and came around a corner to hit a smooth manhole cover, both tires slid on me but because I was hanging off I was able to keep the bike up and kept going. Also people say the Fz1 handles more like a pig, but I enjoy throwing my weight around on it to feel the bike move.

Erci said:

Your butt should be quite a ways back in the seat before you shift off. Make a fist and place it on the seat, up against the tank and slide forward to it. That's a pretty good gauge of where you should be positioned for slide-of-the-seat riding technique.

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Can we call this the punch yourself in the junk technique?

This is almost as bad as presentations in my company, where it seems they have their own language with abbreviations and acronyms.

What are: COW, ARC, MFS? (or MSF, are they different, or is one a typo?)

Andz said:

This is almost as bad as presentations in my company, where it seems they have their own language with abbreviations and acronyms.

What are: COW, ARC, MFS? (or MSF, are they different, or is one a typo?)

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COW= chin over wrist position
ARC= advanced rider course
MSF= motorcycle safety foundation

I had to look up COW myself, lol

Erci said:

Few things come to mind:

I find that the *need* to shift my weight into a turn varies quite a bit, depending on the bike I ride. For example, on FZ6, I hardly ever felt like I needed to do much with my upper body, besides just keeping it in line with the bike lean/angle. In contrast, on FZ1 I find shifting my COW into turn to be almost essential if I want to maintain *brisk* cornering speed.



All of the above sounds good, but as you mentioned, there's no need to stick the knee out (on the street). Just as you stated, it's a gauge.. a feeler.. and if you're leaning over that far on the street with your butt 1/2 off the seat.. you're probably moving way faster than you should be.
When you're shifting your butt off into turn, how close is your crotch to the tank? If it's right up against it, shifting off the seat will cross you up and it'll feel like sticking the knee out will straighten you out. I'm wondering if that's the reason?
Your butt should be quite a ways back in the seat before you shift off. Make a fist and place it on the seat, up against the tank and slide forward to it. That's a pretty good gauge of where you should be positioned for slide-of-the-seat riding technique.
The knee of the outside leg, which you use to hold yourself on the bike (as you said), should be locked into the groove in the tank. If your thigh is on the tank on the outside leg, that's another indicator that you're too close to the tank.
If you were indeed too close to the tank, I'm curious if your knee will still want to step out when you start keeping your butt further back.

You mentioned that shifting COW into turn decreases lean angle. Less lean angle = more reserve, right? Why would we ever not take advantage of this technique then?

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I used to scoot far up to the tank, I'm much better about it now, almost always (once the bike is moving) with my tailbone touching the back of the seat. Putting clip ons helped my position here, and I'm thinking about buying rearset plates to slide the pegs up and back again, should help with that positioning as well.

I don't really feel like the FZ tank is that well designed for grip/hanging on in curves - haven't found this groove you talk about on the FZ, but on my roommate's aprilia it's in the perfect spot for me. Should I grab some tank pads and stick them on?

lawlberg said:

Should I grab some tank pads and stick them on?

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Heck yeah! Anything on sides of your tank (where knees rest) will give you better control. I've got a tank bra on mine and even that provides far better grip than painted metal.

These kick butt and look stock too:

Yamaha FZ6 04-10 Snake Skin

Background on me. I was one of the RiderCoaches this past weekend for lawlberg's ARC. There were 11 RiderCoaches and 8 students for the class. Three of the coaches were MSF Chief instructors and 8 of us were ARC (Advanced Rider Course) instructor candidates. So, everything was presented strictly by the book.

As mentioned 'chin over wrist' (COW) is presented as another tool that a rider might choose to use to reduce his\her lean angle when needed. This can be when cornering in a spirited manner on normal dry pavement or even when traction is compromised by moisture, etc. The caution is to use it for good and not for evil. Once you stick your knee out, it tends to draw the attention of the LEO. Does it go out a little, natually? Yep. For roadracing or track riding, we use it as a curb feeler by sliding the knee along the aspalt to determine how far leaned over we are in relationship to the last time we went thru the same turn. Increasing lean angle very slightly with decreased lap times.

In exercise 4 we encourage riders to go around a small and large cirlce using a lean with the motorcycle posture one lap and then going around using COW. What the rider should experience and what is obvious when observing is that if the rider does both at the same speed, the lean angle will be less when using COW thus increasing traction reserve and lowering risk.

Is this something you would use in everyday riding? Maybe, maybe not. If it makes you ride more agresively even though you've increased your skill level, it may not reduce your overall risk or what is referred to as risk offest in the ARC. And, the consequences can be more severe.

If you're riding agressively all the time and find you need a tool like this all the time because you've run out of ground clearance, then it's probably time to chill and take it to the track. There's way too many variables to riding agressively on the street plus way too many goofy people out there doing really goofy things.

Sorry for the long reply. Lawlberg, it was great to meet you this weekend. You were definitely one of the topics of conversation with the coaches (in a positive way). Everyone enjoyed watching you ride and the maturity with which you rode by giving other students plenty of respect and space. You represented the Forum in a very positive manner.

BTW, I passed and am now an ARC certified ridercoach :thumbup:

MG-242 said:

BTW, I passed and am now an ARC certified ridercoach :thumbup:

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Excellent reply and congrats on passing! :thumbup:

Erci said:

Excellent reply and congrats on passing! :thumbup:

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Thanks! So, you're next? :thumbup:

I think it's going to be a fun course to coach. I really enjoy spending the time with the experienced riders that take it. Many have a lot of very good info to bring to the table and share. Plus, some of the stories are outstanding

Lawlberg rides very good for just having a few years under his belt. He had one little moment where he slipped on a tar strip but recovered nicely. BTW, one of the ridercoaches did the exact same thing on Sunday. Cold tires may have been a contributing factor and is something a lot of riders never consider when they first start out.

Another thing that struck me this weekend is that y'all are very lucky these days to have the educational resources you have. It was 15 yrs into my riding career before there were any courses or books available to help teach us how to ride and much of our learning was trial and error which I am extremely fortunate to have made it through. We were always told to never, never, never use the front brake! Hmmmm!

lawlberg said:

I used to scoot far up to the tank, I'm much better about it now, almost always (once the bike is moving) with my tailbone touching the back of the seat. Putting clip ons helped my position here, and I'm thinking about buying rearset plates to slide the pegs up and back again, should help with that positioning as well.

I don't really feel like the FZ tank is that well designed for grip/hanging on in curves - haven't found this groove you talk about on the FZ, but on my roommate's aprilia it's in the perfect spot for me. Should I grab some tank pads and stick them on?

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Pressing the outside knee into the tank is another method of turning the bike. Of course, countersteering gets the bike over and then you can press the outside knee into the tank for the finer adjustments.

The major advantage of putting the grippy stuff on the tank is for hard braking. Squeezing the tank and using your abs keeps you from locking your elbows to prevent forward movement and putting additional weight on the front end.

As far as whether you're up against the tank or back a skootch - it's more of a personal thing and more related to your physical size and reach. Personally, I like being up against the tank. I feel I have more control and I'm more "one with the motorcylce". This is another reason that I position the clutch and front brake levers a little lower. It forces me up and provides more control. For me. Your mileage may vary :thumbup:

MG-242 said:

Thanks! So, you're next? :thumbup:

I think it's going to be a fun course to coach. I really enjoy spending the time with the experienced riders that take it. Many have a lot of very good info to bring to the table and share. Plus, some of the stories are outstanding

Lawlberg rides very good for just having a few years under his belt. He had one little moment where he slipped on a tar strip but recovered nicely. BTW, one of the ridercoaches did the exact same thing on Sunday. Cold tires may have been a contributing factor and is something a lot of riders never consider when they first start out.

Another thing that struck me this weekend is that y'all are very lucky these days to have the educational resources you have. It was 15 yrs into my riding career before there were any courses or books available to help teach us how to ride and much of our learning was trial and error which I am extremely fortunate to have made it through. We were always told to never, never, never use the front brake! Hmmmm!

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I don't know. Between BRC and BRC2 .. and the new-found track addiction.. not much time to take up more coaching :rof:

We too have tar snakes in many spots on our range and I've had the bike step out on them many times. Steady throttle is your friend, but it's still a bit unnerving. We have one in the S-turn (after U-turn box) where I'm demoing a whole lot of counter-weight and the front just washes out on a hot day.. good times!

I hear ya about training! I was 13 when I started riding. Zero gear, zero idea what I was doing.. very very lucky that I was never in a crash.

MG-242 said:

Personally, I like being up against the tank. I feel I have more control and I'm more "one with the motorcylce".

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Interesting. You stay up against the tank on track? You can hang off without getting crossed up, while up against the tank?

I know I can't :don'tknow:

Erci said:

Heck yeah! Anything on sides of your tank (where knees rest) will give you better control. I've got a tank bra on mine and even that provides far better grip than painted metal.

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Stomp Grip tank pads are awesome. Although it did wreck a pair of jeans from being so grippy

Erci said:

Interesting. You stay up against the tank on track? You can hang off without getting crossed up, while up against the tank?

I know I can't :don'tknow:

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Yep. Not pressing against the tank, but up to it. Watch the GP guys. Their butt pretty much stays perpendicular to the bike. They don't twist. Thighs and abs and knees into the tank help support the body while sliding from side to side with next to no input into the bars other than for steering. Outside elbow will rest on the tank while leaned providing another point of contact to feel what the bike is doing.

Erci said:

I find that the *need* to shift my weight into a turn varies quite a bit, depending on the bike I ride. For example, on FZ6, I hardly ever felt like I needed to do much with my upper body, besides just keeping it in line with the bike lean/angle. In contrast, on FZ1 I find shifting my COW into turn to be almost essential if I want to maintain *brisk* cornering speed.

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Can you elaborate on why the little Fiz gives you this feeling?? I find I can go through most any corner faster than necessary and getting off the seat just adds to that. As such, for the street - its rare to hang off for me.

So I'm curious how the two compare that one lends to forcing the hand. Does the 1 not inspire confidence for the same corner speeds?