Pennsylvania's MSF Advanced Riders Course (ARC)

This is mostly a rant as Ssky0078 write up hits the nail on the head for what to expect from the instructors and course! So if you don't want to read my complaining, hit the back button.:rant:

HOWEVER, whom ever or what ever determines someone to be an "advanced rider" in the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania really needs to be re-examined. So be warned, if in PA don't let the quality "or lack there of" of the students distract you from the instructors. FYI, John our Rider Coach and course director @ Site #35 York Motorcycle Club / Riding at York Business Center (CAT Plant) and Roy his Co-Rider Coach were excellent! They were very patient and had a world of knowledge on motorcycling.

The group we rode with today was small. Seven total. Consisting of tool bag #1 on a 1200 Sportster, toolbag #2 on a brand new and without a clue bagger of some sort. One fairly good rider on a full dressed Victory, Some kid who actually improved his technique on a 1980's something Night Hawk (I think), tool bag #3 on a brand new Triumph Thunderbird, (I remember he was on a Thunderbird because everything he said had something to do with his new Thunderbird) and my wife on the FZ6 and myself on the V-Rod.

The class started off with the typical BS, signing in, introducing yourself etc. etc. The instructor stated this is a pass/ fail course and we will be self checking the written portion of the class. The tool bag 1-3 actually failed their written and were proud of their stupidity! The instructors reminded them of the fact that the quiz was self corrected and to fix their caveman drawings. No one else found their stupidity amusing. My wife and I were anxious to get to the course because we could feel our IQ dropping by the minute.

After lunch we were told to meet at the course no later then 1pm. Needless to say tool bag #1 and #3 showed up 15 or so minutes late. Tool bag #2 amazingly was on time with everyone else!

The remainder of the day consisted of the four of us waiting on the tres tool bags to complete whatever exercise we were doing. They couldn't even stage their bikes. Now mind you all three had just recently completed the BRC on the very grounds we were taking the ARC on. Between their collective mechanical issues (broken clutch cable, can't get the bike in gear, blah blah blah) it was all I could do to contain myself. The few times I was able to do an exercise first it was nice cause my wife was behind me and I knew we could actually learn, practice and become better without tool bags messing it up. BUT that was what, 2 or 3 exercises out of 10. Almost a total waste of a day. On a good note, the class is free to PA licensed class C holders. I might have to try and take it again in September. If tool bags somehow show up for that class we can just bail during a break.

If it happens again I suggest mentioning it to the instructors and let them know that you will be leaving if things don't shape up. I plan to take the ARC here in Harrisburg later this season or possibly next year. If I get stuck with a bunch of in-experienced show offs I will just say something to the coach and ride out. It is a bit upsetting that the only requirement for the course is to have your own bike. At least that is the only requirement I know of. I think you should at minimum need your class m license. The point of the BRC and BRC2 is to help you get your license and establish basics.

My mistake, you need a class M license.
You could see the look on the instructors faces. They did what they could with what they had. And yes I will speak up if this happens again.
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The fact that it's *free* in PA is a huge plus. If I were in your shoes (a student), and had paid for the course, I would definitely have been upset.

It's true, we currently don't have a requirement, other than motorcycle endorsement for anyone to take ARC. I don't teach ARC, but all the instructors at my school who do have mentioned to me that some people who show up for it would likely fail BRC eval!!

We've discussed setting up a pre-requisite at my school for each course. As in.. must take BRC2 before ARC. I'll bring that up again at next meeting.

In the end though, experience does not necessarily equate to someone being considerable and respectful. Same tool bags, no matter how proficient at riding they were, would have likely been late anyway and wouldn't necessarily have taken things seriously.

Tool bag! I like that - cracking me up!!:thumbup:

Hopefully, you were given an opportunity to note your experience on an end of course survey. If I was teaching and you described your 'not so positive' experience on the survey, I would escalate it. As Erci mentions, reviewing the students before hand would help. The instructor also has the authority to dismiss tools at any time. I think Ohio wants the riders to have a few years experience for the ARC. I know they expect at least 1 yr for the BRC2.

Sorry you had a bad experience. The course is actually pretty good. But, there is also a downside to it being free in that any 'tool bag' can sign up for it even if they aren't there to learn.

We were given a critique at the end... The "Strive for 5" critique, meaning they want 5 stars for all line items. To tell the truth, I actually gave them a 5 on each. That is because the critique was focused on the instructors and the course, as it should be, because there is no way they can be held accountable for tool bags. I just sent the MSF an e-mail about the class. Hope it doesn't fall on def ears.

I didn't know they could dismiss students for inability, however, if they did, there would only be 4 riders left.

Erci, Correct me if I'm wrong but they would have to cancel the class with only four right? So even thought we had to deal with them, I'm glad they didn't throw them out so at least we got some course time. It was nice to narrow up those chicken strips! Wish I had my video camera so I could let you all see these tool bags in action! My 12 year old daughter can ride her bicycle better!:rof:

Bill said:

We were given a critique at the end... The "Strive for 5" critique, meaning they want 5 stars for all line items. To tell the truth, I actually gave them a 5 on each. That is because the critique was focused on the instructors and the course, as it should be, because there is no way they can be held accountable for tool bags. I just sent the MSF an e-mail about the class. Hope it doesn't fall on def ears.

I didn't know they could dismiss students for inability, however, if they did, there would only be 4 riders left.

Erci, Correct me if I'm wrong but they would have to cancel the class with only four right? So even thought we had to deal with them, I'm glad they didn't throw them out so at least we got some course time. It was nice to narrow up those chicken strips! Wish I had my video camera so I could let you all see these tool bags in action! My 12 year old daughter can ride her bicycle better!:rof:

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Nope, the class would go on. If initial registration was only 4 people, they would cancel it, but the tool bags paid and showed up. If they were not able to show ability to easily complete exercise one (I believe it's the same as BRC2, in which case it's a gentle cone weave and students are given an option to do it one-handed), they should have been asked to leave.
Really, if a student cannot successfully complete any given exercise, they should not be allowed to continue.

In all honesty, I felt very similarly when I took the ARC. It felt like a round two of the basic rider course, just on your own bike. There was some great knowledge gained, don't get me wrong - and refined technique from some useful advice. The small class allots for some 1 on 1 to some degree. I felt it extremely basic though for what I had anticipated to be more at speed strategies, not low speed maneuvering which I already feel extraordinarily comfortable with. Plus not to mention there were people with trikes in my course. One woman demanded I stop blipping the throttle because my exhaust fumes were making her nauseous.

The safety of practicing quickly stopping and maneuvering is always helpful, it was however in my honest opinion - nothing you couldn't gain from practicing in a parking lot; perhaps the dignity of saying you completed it - but that's about it.

If It was my class and somebody was actually 15 minutes late coming back from lunch, I would have not let them back in. Early is on time, on time is late!

92Bit said:

If it happens again I suggest mentioning it to the instructors and let them know that you will be leaving if things don't shape up. I plan to take the ARC here in Harrisburg later this season or possibly next year. If I get stuck with a bunch of in-experienced show offs I will just say something to the coach and ride out. It is a bit upsetting that the only requirement for the course is to have your own bike. At least that is the only requirement I know of. I think you should at minimum need your class m license. The point of the BRC and BRC2 is to help you get your license and establish basics.

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well TN and PA, as well as the majority of other states might as well just hand over the license if you pass the written exam. the actual riding tests are useless. all a had to do was start the bike, engage it, ride up the street and turn around in a giant parking lot and come back. i rode a total of half a block
and of course i had to wait 2 hours for a woman to watch me for 15-20 seconds..........

SweaterDude said:

well TN and PA, as well as the majority of other states might as well just hand over the license if you pass the written exam. the actual riding tests are useless. all a had to do was start the bike, engage it, ride up the street and turn around in a giant parking lot and come back. i rode a total of half a block
and of course i had to wait 2 hours for a woman to watch me for 15-20 seconds..........

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Actually that sounds pretty advanced to me. On my basic MSF course I didn't even make it out of the parking lot.

Here is a copy of the email traffic between myself and the PA MSF. I'm impressed with the quick response. Although, the answer is what I expected... "it's free so take another". Which I plan on doing.


Dear Sir or Ma'am,

I do not have a question so much as a concern. My wife and I took the ARC a few days ago. John and Roy our Rider Coach's were excellent instructors! No complaints what so ever. Also no complaints about the program. I found it very informative and brought up things I've forgotten over the years.

However, there were a few students that were not advanced riders. I do not understand how they were allowed in the class. These individuals should NOT be on a motorcycle let alone a licensed motorcyclist in an advanced skills class such as the ARC. I understand they "meet" the minimum requirements set forth by Pennsylvania DOT and the MSF to be in the ARC. But they are by no means experienced and or advanced in their abilities. They stated they were unsure of their motorcycles abilities because they just purchased them a short time ago. They even stated they were unsure of their own abilities as they are new to riding themselves. They even had mechanical issues with their bikes that John had to help with. They could not, would not, or were unable to follow instructions given to them from John and Roy. They continually held up the class in both the classroom and on the course. Two individuals returned 15 minutes late from lunch. They couldn't even stage their motorcycles correctly even after being told and directed many times on how to properly stage. They even threatened our safety on the course which John and or Roy dealt with swiftly and effectively by stopping the exercises and giving more instruction. I applaud John and Roy for their patience and the ability to keep the class moving.

I truly feel this particular class was almost a total waste of our day. The fact that these individuals "passed" the ARC is deplorable. It gives these individuals a false sense of accomplishment which, in my opinion, makes them even more dangerous in the real world. Again, if it were not for John and Roy, my wife and I would have left the class shortly after lunch. Now I realize the class is free. I really appreciate the fact that the ARC is offered as a free course to PA residents. I have friends in other states where it is not free and rather expensive. The MSF needs to come up with some sort of pretest before allowing people in the ARC. Maybe an on-line quiz to be completed before the class and a first thing in the morning course abilities test to make sure only truly experienced and capable riders are allowed in the ARC.

The class my wife and I attended was held at:

York Motorcycle Club/Riding at York Business Center (CAT Plant)
- Class Date: 8/10/2013
- Course Number: 235403


v/r

--
William H. Bartenfelder Jr.
Firefighter/EMT
NSA Bethesda
Fire & Emergency Services
Work: 301-295-xxxx
Cell: 717-841-xxxx



Bill
Thanks for your feedback and sorry for your experience. You have to have a class M to take the ARC, so they already had a license, unless you are talking about the BRC2.

You might consider taking another class. It is great free and the more you practice the better you get

These other riders also learned a lot and may have learned a skill that will save their life.

The more we train and educate all the better it gets, but I understand you frustration
Sorry. Try again please
Dave


David Surgenor
Pa Motorcycle Safety Program
1-800-874-8900

I received a follow up e-mail from David

Bill
FYI. The course was designed for young military men who were having fatal crashes on sport bikes. Not a lot of experience. The navy experienced a 40% reduction in fatalities making in mandatory. They may have needed that course more than they even knew
Again sorry you experience was affected by them and hope you learned something. Please take advantage of our free courses and consider becoming a RiderCoach someday


David Surgenor
Pa Motorcycle Safety Program
1-800-874-8900


My response was...


David,

Thank you for your replies. I am a civilian Firefighter EMT in the Department of the Navy. I work at NSA Bethesda Fire & Emergency Services located at Walter Reed National Military Hospital in Bethesda, Montgomery County Maryland. I appreciate statistics, however skewed they may be. That 40% reduction in fatalities in the U.S. Navy as a result of "mandatory" MSF class is outstanding. However, I fail to see the connection between the ARC at the York facility and the U.S. Navy.

When I was enlisted in the Navy (1991) we only had to have a class M endorsement to ride on base. Now as a civilian I was (up until 2013) mandated to take the military MSF class. It insulted my level of experience and ability, but I took the classes anyway. If I wanted to ride on base I had to have the "card". After many years of re-qualifying and going through the motions at the BRC level I quit riding to work (2009) because I didn't take the class. My supervisor would get an email stating that I did not complete mandatory training. He would then come to me and ask why I did not take the class. I told him I no longer rode my motorcycle to work. There for I was no longer required to take the class. The Navy recently stopped mandatory MSF classes for civilians. Why? I do not know. So every so often I ride to work. Maybe 3 or 4 times a year. I'm getting way off subject here...

I'm not against training. In fact I'm absolutely 100% for it, but, if the MSF titles a class Advanced Riders Course I expect advanced riders to be in attendance. Not newly graduated BRC2 students or the bunch that showed up this past weekend. These students needed more basic training then what the ARC was intended for. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the ARC was meant to take a novice rider and help turn them into an advanced rider?

Four years ago I took the Lee Parks Advanced Riding Clinic in Columbia, MD. (The U.S. Navy would not accept this class in place of the MSF BRC, hmmm, wonder why?) I feel the class closely mirrored the ARC, especially for the on course exercises. Except the Lee Parks clinic had a more race oriented feel (which was fine, except we don't race) and it went deeper into suspension set up. The class was very expensive. It cost both my wife and I $700. Hardly worth that kind of $$ for the education received when compared to the ARC. However, we were in a class of experienced riders, ones that knew what trail breaking is and how to properly use it. etc. etc.

Two years ago I took the Level 2 class. Again very race track oriented (pretty useless for everyday riders) but very informative and I found my abilities surpassed the limits of my motorcycle. I know this is neither here or there. I just want you to understand my frame of reference.

As for being a "RiderCoach", I have little patience for the people I experienced this weekend. If I were John or Roy this weekend, I would have thrown at least 3 people off the course that day. Which, if that were the case, no one would have been any better, and I'm sure you'd probably be getting hate mail from them about what a jackass I was to them. LOL! I'd hate it if these students were in my class and I found out they were hurt or worse after going through a class I taught.

I apologize for the rant. I just hope somehow you are able to influence a change in the PA MSF ARC program to meet the needs of people outside the military. If there are three levels of instruction being (beginners) BRC, (novices) BRC2, and (advanced) ARC, have each student placed where their level of experience dictates.

Thanks,

Bill

Erci said:

The fact that it's *free* in PA is a huge plus. If I were in your shoes (a student), and had paid for the course, I would definitely have been upset.

It's true, we currently don't have a requirement, other than motorcycle endorsement for anyone to take ARC. I don't teach ARC, but all the instructors at my school who do have mentioned to me that some people who show up for it would likely fail BRC eval!!

We've discussed setting up a pre-requisite at my school for each course. As in.. must take BRC2 before ARC. I'll bring that up again at next meeting.

In the end though, experience does not necessarily equate to someone being considerable and respectful. Same tool bags, no matter how proficient at riding they were, would have likely been late anyway and wouldn't necessarily have taken things seriously.

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At the school I had attended, the pre-requisite was the BRC and at least 3,000 miles of seat time within the last 6 months (may have been 12). If the seat time was not there, they still encouraged as much as possible but would not allow someone to register until after taking the Confident Rider Course (CRC/BRC2/ERC) which is basically BRC but on your own bike. I almost didn't get to register because I had put 1,800 miles on my Fz6 before crashing it, then I had about 1,500 miles on the Fz1. They really wanted 3,000 miles without crashes, hahahah.

During my ARC they split us up into 2 groups. I was with 2 really experienced guys and a decent rider on an Fz6. The other group was not as good. It made it better from a psychological point of not dealing with tool bags.

Bill said:

I'm not against training. In fact I'm absolutely 100% for it, but, if the MSF titles a class Advanced Riders Course I expect advanced riders to be in attendance. Not newly graduated BRC2 students or the bunch that showed up this past weekend. These students needed more basic training then what the ARC was intended for. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the ARC was meant to take a novice rider and help turn them into an advanced rider?

As for being a "RiderCoach", I have little patience for the people I experienced this weekend. If I were John or Roy this weekend, I would have thrown at least 3 people off the course that day. Which, if that were the case, no one would have been any better, and I'm sure you'd probably be getting hate mail from them about what a jackass I was to them. LOL! I'd hate it if these students were in my class and I found out they were hurt or worse after going through a class I taught.

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I was a novice rider that took the ARC and significantly improved my skills. I generally try to be respectful and work hard at whatever I'm doing though. Sounds like you just got stuck with some turds. We had 2 guys in the second group of my ARC, both HD riders, both obnoxious, and luckily they didn't slow up my group because we were split up.

A couple of times the Rider Coaches made it clear that they would send people home for being late, failing to follow instruction, or incapable of completing the exercise. I saw one of the Coaches give a talking to the HD guy to get his act together or he would have to leave. I think it would have been fair to send somebody home if they were disruptive to the whole experience.

I paid $149 for my course though, so maybe the price point alone scared off the noobs and douches.

Sorry you had a rough time, maybe a track day would be more up your alley if you're that experienced to not get anything out of the ARC exercises. Most of those start around $200 and you could get private instruction.

chunkygoat said:

One woman demanded I stop blipping the throttle because my exhaust fumes were making her nauseous.

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I can relate to... HER. During my BRC last year, some tool was not blipping, but revving his bike all day long. First, it's a 250cc Honda Rebel... not a Gixxer. Second, I'm breathing in those fumes and getting sick. He was a tool.

darius said:

Actually that sounds pretty advanced to me. On my basic MSF course I didn't even make it out of the parking lot.

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ive never taken an actual MSF course. that was the actual exam at the license center. during the test i didnt do any parking lot exercises, no figure 8's, nothing. just start, leave, come back. my dad asked the examiner if they confiscate your bike on the spot if you fail, which they probably should....... it's really pathetic, i mean you dont even have to shift, and you start slightly downhill.

SweaterDude said:

ive never taken an actual MSF course. that was the actual exam at the license center. during the test i didnt do any parking lot exercises, no figure 8's, nothing. just start, leave, come back. my dad asked the examiner if they confiscate your bike on the spot if you fail, which they probably should....... it's really pathetic, i mean you dont even have to shift, and you start slightly downhill.

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Bit of sarcasm in my post but yes riders are for sure better off with the 2 and a half days of the MSF basic course that hopefully all states offer now.

I agree with Bill, I felt the same way about the ARC. I got to take it thru the CG for free, but I assumed it would be more sport bike oriented. It was fun to do, but felt more like a refresher course mainly because I had been performing the same tasks in real life. It did however, put the why behind the how we did those obstacles.