MSF Article - Looking Through Curves

Gathering Visual Information
Does a motorcycle go where its rider looks? No; this is a common misconception. If this were true, a rider could simply avoid a crash by looking elsewhere. And a rider would swerve every time a blind spot was checked or he/she looked at scenery off to the side. Reality requires switching the words around a bit: “A rider should look where he wants the motorcycle to go.” Not because looking will aim the motorcycle, but because you need to gather visual information and evaluate the path to assist in your navigation. Turning your head in the direction of the turn helps you form a good visual picture, but to cause a motorcycle to move from a straight path of travel, there must be some physical input – the handlebars normally must be moved.

A rider should look in the general direction of the turn but move his eyes throughout the intended path: scan side to side and near to far, keeping eyes up and looking through the entire curve. Those who fixate on a given point in the distance might miss certain factors that are important for safety, such as surface conditions or objects in (or heading into) their immediate path of travel.

As you approach a curve, evaluate radius, lane width, camber, surface condition, other traffic, etc. Is the entire curve visible? Does it get tighter? Is there an escape area like a paved shoulder? Select a good lane position for the smoothest line through the corner, and choose an appropriate entry speed so you won’t need to brake while leaned over. Keep throttle, steering and braking inputs smooth. Be ready for any changes in the curve, such as surface conditions and other traffic. And increase speed only as you straighten up when the curve begins to straighten out.

Curves are where most single-vehicle motorcycle crashes occur. Don’t be a “sightseer” in curves; be an active participant in the task at hand.

Reprinted courtesy of Motorcycle Safety Foundation, msf-usa.org.

The only thing I question is only apply the throttle when straightening up or through the curve. I was taught to get on the gas shortly after the apex of the corner (about midway through) and to then accelerate out of the corner. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

"Does a motorcycle go where its rider looks? No; this is a common misconception ..........."
This concept is not meant to be absolutely literal, rather is meant to explain the phenomena known as "Object Fixation".

Some examples:
In off-road riding on a rocky trail, if you focus on that big rock you are more likely to hit it than if you were taking in the whole trail without focusing on a particular object.

In slalom water skiing, if you focus on the buoy you are more likely to ski over it rather than around it.

Object fixation can be a problem for some, but not all people. Ever wonder why so many people accidentally run over the traffic cones in a roadway work zone? It is often the result of object fixation ..... the vehicle goes where the driver/rider is looking ..... If they are prone to object fixation.

Good article though!

Exactly OldeDude. When I did my defensive riding course, one of the obstacles we had to navigate was a corridor about 5" wider than our handlebars - and the technique they taught was to always look where you're going, rather than concentrating on the hazard.

They tested a few, before telling us of this technique and sure enough, the guys that looked to the edge to see if they'd fit, tended to lean that way.

It may not be a dramatic change of direction, more of a compulsive leaning that way.

The biggest problem I see, especially with new riders, is their 'observed distance', essentially 'how far ahead they look' and then their pre-emptive actions. (much the same can be said for cagers)

It feels unnatural, initially, to look so far ahead, but once you get used to it - and trust your peripheral vision, it makes for much more relaxed, pre-emptive riders, that don't make those around them nervous.

Cheers,
Rick

I totally agree. I thought the videos in this link to be of a super help >

Carolina Motorcycle Cooperative Association: The Cornering Bible

:rockon::cheer::Flash::thumbup:

callmegandhi said:

The only thing I question is only apply the throttle when straightening up or through the curve. I was taught to get on the gas shortly after the apex of the corner (about midway through) and to then accelerate out of the corner. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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"And increase speed only as you straighten up when the curve begins to straighten out. "

You should absolutely be on the throttle as soon as you're done setting your entry speed, but you shouldn't be accelerating until you can fully see far ahead. Throttle should be kept steady and you increase throttle input as the curve straightens out and you can see farther ahead :thumbup:

Erci said:

Gathering Visual Information
Does a motorcycle go where its rider looks? No; this is a common misconception. If this were true, a rider could simply avoid a crash by looking elsewhere. And a rider would swerve every time a blind spot was checked or he/she looked at scenery off to the side. Reality requires switching the words around a bit: “A rider should look where he wants the motorcycle to go.” Not because looking will aim the motorcycle, but because you need to gather visual information and evaluate the path to assist in your navigation. Turning your head in the direction of the turn helps you form a good visual picture, but to cause a motorcycle to move from a straight path of travel, there must be some physical input – the handlebars normally must be moved.

A rider should look in the general direction of the turn but move his eyes throughout the intended path: scan side to side and near to far, keeping eyes up and looking through the entire curve. Those who fixate on a given point in the distance might miss certain factors that are important for safety, such as surface conditions or objects in (or heading into) their immediate path of travel.

As you approach a curve, evaluate radius, lane width, camber, surface condition, other traffic, etc. Is the entire curve visible? Does it get tighter? Is there an escape area like a paved shoulder? Select a good lane position for the smoothest line through the corner, and choose an appropriate entry speed so you won’t need to brake while leaned over. Keep throttle, steering and braking inputs smooth. Be ready for any changes in the curve, such as surface conditions and other traffic. And increase speed only as you straighten up when the curve begins to straighten out.

Curves are where most single-vehicle motorcycle crashes occur. Don’t be a “sightseer” in curves; be an active participant in the task at hand.

Reprinted courtesy of Motorcycle Safety Foundation, msf-usa.org.

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Thanks for some of the great info you have been posting lately!! This as well as some others

Aside from object fixation I think the two biggest factors in navigating corners without problems are to train your brain to keep steady throttle and do NOT hit the brakes even if the corner gets unexpectedly tighter or you have to dodge debris. Once mid-corner the bike is balanced so long as you don't let off the throttle or hit the brakes which will upset that balance and cause a loss of traction. The only corners I will hit at full speed are the ones I can see both shoulders and all the way through the corner. On the curvy roads with a lot of hills those kinds of corners are super rare. Be safe.

FIZZER6 said:

I think the two biggest factors in navigating corners without problems are to train your brain to keep steady throttle and do NOT hit the brakes even if the corner gets unexpectedly tighter

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Something like this happened this past weekend when brother went riding with one of his in-laws and let him borrow his KLR650. The in-law is a fairly inexperienced rider. My brother knew this and kept the pace slow and steady. However, when navigating through a curve, the in-law felt that he was going too fast, panicked, and hit the front brakes. Of course, the front swept out from underneath him and he wrecked the bike. Thankfully, the in-law is ok. He was geared up and only has a few bumps and scrapes. The bike, well... it's going to need about a $1,000 worth of repairs.

MisterX said:

Something like this happened this past weekend when brother went riding with one of his in-laws and let him borrow his KLR650. The in-law is a fairly inexperienced rider. My brother knew this and kept the pace slow and steady. However, when navigating through a curve, the in-law felt that he was going too fast, panicked, and hit the front brakes. Of course, the front swept out from underneath him and he wrecked the bike. Thankfully, the in-law is ok. He was geared up and only has a few bumps and scrapes. The bike, well... it's going to need about a $1,000 worth of repairs.

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Ouch! Tough way to learn. It's something that even the more experienced riders can do in a panic situation. It really is something you have to ingrain in your brain so that you will react correctly instinctively without having to think about it.

Something a fellow rider who has been riding street bikes for 30 years taught me was to cover the front brake with just 1 finger when going around a blind curve, if you have to straighten up and apply brake this will help you apply the brakes slow and smoothly because it's impossible to slam on the front brake with just 1 finger. It's already helped me be a smoother rider. :thumbup:

Newer riders should probably try to set speed early and stay off the brakes.

For anyone else, if you are not comfortable getting hard on the front brake while leaned Over in a corner (hazard, decreasing radius, etc) withOUT standing it up, then you are taking more risk then you need to be. It's such a critical survival skill. Think about it.

mave2911 said:

Exactly OldeDude. When I did my defensive riding course, one of the obstacles we had to navigate was a corridor about 5" wider than our handlebars - and the technique they taught was to always look where you're going, rather than concentrating on the hazard.

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All that stuff you learn in those courses and other places is so important. Never know when you will have to dig the knowledge out and apply it. A couple of months ago was riding a scooter on the Amalfi coast in Italy. Wife on the back and doing about 20 to 25 when a big blue bus going the opposite direction came around a curve and past the car or truck parked on their side of the road. Driver was good, he left me enough room to get by. Had the width of the scooter plus a foot or less on each side. I was thinking "keep it straight, keep it straight". Never looked at the buss just straight ahead and focused on where I wanted to be. Not too bad but did get the heart beating a little faster. Had the GoPrp mounted but it was off. Would have been a great video. A lot of folks can't believe I have ridden the Amalfi coast on a scooter much less three times. It is not bad if you know how to ride and practice good riding techniques.

Erci, thanks for posting this MSF article. I don't want to take anything away from the article but I think it is generally accpeted that the MSF is geared toward new riders, and that is great, but not everything the MSF teaches translates directly to non-n00b riding techniques.

My comments that follow all pertain to non-n00b riders AND regular defensive/sane/legal street riding.

Erci said:

and choose an appropriate entry speed so you won’t need to brake while leaned over.

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Setting entry speed is often preached like gospel, but there are lots of people that don't agree with this technique.

FIZZER6 said:

do NOT hit the brakes even if the corner gets unexpectedly tighter or you have to dodge debris. .

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Definitely never want to "hit" the brakes, but choosing to outlaw braking in a corner is throwing an incredible amount of control out the window.


I can't explain it better than anyone else and I'm no authority so I thought I would post some previous discussions for people to consider if they want.

A good explanation with some debate: Fridays Tip, introduction to trail braking

A more controversal discussion: Let's Talk About Decreasing Radius Turns - Chicagoland Sportbikes

And no, none of this contradicts the theory behind "the pace"

Lastly, it goes without saying that there are many types of corners on the street. Some require very early throttle (generally open and more sweeping turns) and some lend themselves staying on the brakes for a long time (for example, decreasinig radius). But the most important take away, and the main reason why this is important for street riders, is that being on the brakes allows you to smoothly increase your braking significantly (like in an emergency) without compromising control...and I find that to be very important.

YMMV :thumbup:

Just stumbled across this thread. Braking in corners by the same guy that wrote the pace...

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805304

DefyInertia said:

Just stumbled across this thread. Braking in corners by the same guy that wrote the pace...

Braking by Nick Ienatsch - ADVrider

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Excellent thread just because he takes the time to explain what your tires are actually doing when they are leaned over in a corner, and that is providing mostly traction and very little for braking.

But again, it takes extreme mental and physical skills not to "Stab" or I like to call it "Grab or Slam" the brakes when you think you need it the most. I don't think most average street riders will be able to do that, especailly if they don't practice it. Most can't even apply their brakes properly in a real life emergency situation when it involves riding in a straight line. And doing that in a corner is even more difficult and will have it's consequences based on the traction grip explanation. But if I read it correctly, slower you go the tighter you can get it, so that is the reason for the gradual braking in the corner?

The MSF likes to use the KIS theory. Keep It Simple. Obviously you can disect the cornering into more advanced techniques, but when you are dealing with new riders, you just cover the basic riding fundamentals allowing them to operate a motorcycle.

VEGASRIDER said:

Excellent thread just because he takes the time to explain what your tires are actually doing when they are leaned over in a corner, and that is providing mostly traction and very little for braking.

But again, it takes extreme mental and physical skills not to "Stab" or I like to call it "Grab or Slam" the brakes when you think you need it the most. I don't think most average street riders will be able to do that, especailly if they don't practice it. Most can't even apply their brakes properly in a real life emergency situation when it involves riding in a straight line. And doing that in a corner is even more difficult and will have it's consequences based on the traction grip explanation. But if I read it correctly, slower you go the tighter you can get it, so that is the reason for the gradual braking in the corner?

The MSF likes to use the KIS theory. Keep It Simple. Obviously you can disect the cornering into more advanced techniques, but when you are dealing with new riders, you just cover the basic riding fundamentals allowing them to operate a motorcycle.

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VR,

I have a deep respect for what the MSF has accomplished in my lifetime. I have to believe there are now more riders who are educated in a formal setting, than 'seat of the pants' self educated experts. That can only be a plus.

I think much more along the lines of Ientach.... traction management is critical to survival. What he is referring to with regard to braking during cornering is that the margin of available traction for braking varies with speed and lean angle. As you slow, and the line you can take becomes tighter, you have the option of either continuing on a tighter line, or starting to stand the bike upright. IF you chose to make the bike more vertical, you have more traction available for braking.

I have attended MSRC, ERC, BRC, and also Team Oregon's ART (Advanced Rider Training). It is my humble opinion that MSF still lacks the finesse to teach this more subtle point. I personally believe this is more due to 'not invented here' than any fundamental lack of capability on the part of the course, or the instructors.

The spectrum of what causes riders to crash has not changed drastically since the 1970's. Alcohol still plays a PROMINENT part the vast majority of MC crashes. (bad decisions, failure to identify threats, bad space management, etc., etc.)

Multi vehicle accidents still happen primarily at intersections, and within a scant number of miles of the MC operator's home. Everything being taught within the doctrine of the MSF is still focused on that majority scenario. This likely covers over 80% of scenarios riders face.

I do believe lip service is now being given to single vehicle accidents -- that in which riders fail to negotiate turns. This much smaller subset of fatalities is in fact a smaller set -- one could say as a result it doesn't need the emphasis of basic skills. I do not believe that to be the case.

If you tell people that they are proficient, they will stop learning. They won't feel the need to further increase their skill set. Better to tell them they have only begun to learn what takes a lifetime to master, and show them there is always room for growth.

Feathering the brakes, and the throttle in order to not upset the chassis geometry and maintain predictable handling is not emphasized during any curriculum I have attended, taught by MSF certified instructors.

Slow in, fast out..... smoothness is key to going fast.

And last but not least -- pointing your nose and chin at where you want the bike to go makes you put your center of mass more towards where it needs to be to make that happen. You can still let your eyes scan.... but keep that chin and nose pointing where you want to go.

DefyInertia said:

Newer riders should probably try to set speed early and stay off the brakes.

For anyone else, if you are not comfortable getting hard on the front brake while leaned Over in a corner (hazard, decreasing radius, etc) withOUT standing it up, then you are taking more risk then you need to be. It's such a critical survival skill. Think about it.

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I think this is sound advice..... if someone understands what it feels like to start to lose the front end, and that it is a recoverable event. As Ientach says, you can feel it start to go, if you haven't hacked at the controls, and upset multiple aspects of the handling equation.

RJ2112 said:

Feathering the brakes, and the throttle in order to not upset the chassis geometry and maintain predictable handling is not emphasized during any curriculum I have attended, taught by MSF certified instructors.

Slow in, fast out..... smoothness is key to going fast.
.

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Fortunately available traction while cornering is covered in the curriculum, and emphasized during various range excercises and ultimately your slow in fast out and smoothness is evaluated at the end in the skills evaluation. But once again, we are not here to create the perfect rider, just there to show them the basic fundamentals. Everyone has to start somewhere, and since cornering is the number one cause of crashes without the rider needing any other help, it starts with the basics. Looking through the turn, gaining information, and so forth.

Once again, a seasoned rider will probably gain much more out of a track day class or attending Lee Parks or other form of advanced riding clinic focusing on cornering and braking versus most of the popular MSF courses since street riding strategies and survival while riding in traffic and other subjects, such as impairment must be covered.

DefyInertia said:

Just stumbled across this thread. Braking in corners by the same guy that wrote the pace...

Braking by Nick Ienatsch - ADVrider

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Fantastic post! Read this line: "The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle."

That's really no different from MSF's "Slow Look Press Roll".. just expanded and fully explained. Funny.. I was going to bring up traction percentages (points) before you posted this link. See that's just it.. can't possibly expect new riders to be able to manage points, so what's the safest alternative? Separate the 2 so you don't have to! Speed up, slow down, turn.. do each one separately, but never any 2 at the same time. It's not a bad thing to slow down more than necessary before the curve when it comes to street riding.. certainly much better than going into a turn too quickly.

I bet a large % of experienced riders would not be able to mange the points very well either. Hopefully, they would be leaving lots points, rather than going over 100.

I agree that MSF advice seems to be geared toward newer riders, but I see so many *experienced* riders out there who appear to be absolutely awful! I'd rather tell them to slow way down before turns and roll on through the curve than explain the physics of tire traction percentages :rof:

Notice how MSF language is worded very carefully: "choose an appropriate entry speed so you won’t need to brake while leaned over"

Do you see this line as "you should never brake in a turn"? I can see how one would, but it doesn't actually say that. I see it as more of "it would be best not to have to brake while leaned over" and once again we come back to highest level of finesse .. having to understand how much traction is left over for braking based on lean angle and road conditions.. not to mention rider's ability to properly apply brakes.

Of course experienced and motivated riders can learn more advanced techniques, but I think in general the original MSF cornering article provides very sound advice.