Panic Stop Practice Methods?

I practice panic breaking a few times every few weeks. Sometimes in parking lots and other times on empty stretches of road. I do very well in practice. BUT! I fall apart in the real world. I was cutoff yesterday morning on my way to work and I missed the offender's car by less than a foot. It shouldn't have been that close. It's a rough, blind intersection and I was ready to get cutoff - I always am. Yet when it actually happened I completely favored the rear break and slid towards the car and braced for impact. I was fortunate that driver saw me coming and had the wherewithal to gas it (or at least it seemed like it.)

I know how to stop quickly. I know that the rear break is *essentially useless in that situation. I know to be alert and ready. The question is, why didn't I apply this knowledge and skill when it really mattered?

I blame the way I practice panic stops. No matter what I'm mentally ready for the appropriate response. My brain is in panic stop mode.. of course I do it perfectly. The element of surprise is completely absent

Does anybody have a method for practicing that maintains real world sense of surprise.. or panic? Maybe there's an app for that? (actually.. that might not be a bad idea.).



*It's not useless.. it's just much less useful than the front

The rear brake is deffeniatly not useless in that situation, it helps a lot more then you think, you just don't need to lock it up, but of you use it right it can take feet off your total stoping distance

The way i trained my little sister to ride and be good on the brakes was to find a nice open car park (parking lot) i would get her to ride some distance away from me and i would then get her to ride towards me at a steady road speed. i would then raise my arm and examine how long it took her to stop. i would do this a different times on her approach so she never knew when i was going to do it. I actually seen it save her ass when i was out with her once.

I know it cant be done on your own but maybe worth a shot?

I have practiced much the same as you do. I haven't had to apply it in a real world scenario yet. I am looking forward to the responses! Great thread!:cheer:

I do the same thing you do in empty lots, but I also practice on the street as well. Empty intersections are a good time to try it, and I'll just purposefully leave my braking way later than I would normally do it, and see how long I can wait to put them on and still not pass the big white line. Sometimes I misjudge, which is why /empty/ intersections is an important part. I'll do it on backroads when no one is around as well.

There are also a few intersections/sections of road that I practice on because they have very very poor pavement. Some have lots of patches, some are just old with ruts, some roads in Cincinnati actually have tire grooves and weird bumps in the tire grooves that unsettle you (one of the few times I run the middle track of the lane). Doing this really helps me learn to judge where there is grip, and when you should be hard on the brakes vs. letting off.

I try to treat every ride like practice or a learning experience, provided the conditions allow it. Don't go practicing panic braking or BP in traffic, but it would be a good opportunity to learn better clutch control.

I might suggest baby steps too. If your having trouble going hard on the front for emergency braking, practice doing it with just the front for a while to try to get your brain into that mode, then start to phase in the rear. Personally I find myself practicing with the rear more because I rarely use it in regular riding....:spank:

Edit: Something a MSF instructor bashed into my head when talking about squiddies is that if you plan on spending a lot of time above 100 mph you better spend a lot of time practicing decelerating from that speed. Its a different world than 65. I carry that over into how I ride, which is what I meant by practicing on backroads. I'm not just stopping in the middle of the road for no reason, but I figure if I'm regularly zipping along these roads at 60, I better be prepared for a deer or whatever coming into the road, and having to do a panic stop from that speed. Likewise, city speeds are a different world as well.

That was a lot of text when my only point was that you should practice at a variety of speeds as well. I read a post above me talking about lot drills and that came into my head. Lot drills are fine but the real world isn't a lot so you do well to practice the real world scenarios. I guess that's what I meant by the line "I try to treat every ride like practice" i typed earlier.

ChevyFazer said:

The rear brake is deffeniatly not useless in that situation, it helps a lot more then you think, you just don't need to lock it up, but of you use it right it can take feet off your total stoping distance

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I shouldn't have said "essentially useless." Its' much more accurate to say that the front brake is doing the majority of work in a good emergency stop. Once the weight of the rider/bike is shifted that far forward the rear tire can only get so much grip and is very easy to lock up.

I should provide a few more details about the near-incident and my experience.

It was cold out - roughly 25F. My tire's should have been somewhat warm as I had already been riding for an hour plus. The road was dry and ice free. I was only going about 35MPH when I began breaking. I was already mad at another driver and this is something that always affects my riding - it shifts my focus to the wrong things. I've been working on this too..

I practice panic stops at various speeds (20 - 80 MPH) and on various road surfaces and conditions. I am very good at it when practicing - heck I've been doing it for quite a few years.

I already asked my wife to help me with some parking lot drills. I'm thinking that if she's creative and tries to make her signals seem random then I should be able to improve my real world responses greatly.

Hopefully these sessions and this thread result in a system that we can all use to improve ourselves. (If you don't have room for improvement you're doing it wrong.)

Solution: keep practicing

teeter said:

I shouldn't have said "essentially useless." Its' much more accurate to say that the front brake is doing the majority of work in a good emergency stop. Once the weight of the rider/bike is shifted that far forward the rear tire can only get so much grip and is very easy to lock up.

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Yes it is very easy to lock up and if it does lock up it can cause more problems if your not ready for it, I dont know the exact percentage of how much the front brakes vs the rear brakes are but I would say that in a emergency stop situation it's probably around 75-80 front and 25-20 rear so from 60mph if you can keep the rear from locking up it could probably knock about 5ft off your stopping distance. When you practice do you use your rear, did you use your rear when that happend? If you don't maybe try and practice only braking with the rear so you can get use to how it feels and how much pressure it takes to lock it up, and then once you feel comfortable with the rear add the front in. I've practiced it a good bit and it's easy to do when your just practicing but so far I've had to slam on brakes twice now and both time I forgot to pull in the clutch, one time it stalled and the next it was about to stall but I remembered at the last second. When it comes down to it and you feel that your life is on the line it's hard to remember every little thing that you need to do, IMHO the only way to remember everything is to practice more and pound it into your head so it becomes second nature. Most of the time when someone pulls out in front of me I try to use the bikes size to my advantage and just go beside them lane splitting instead of braking, but that is not always your best option. Being aware of your surroundings and always having a "out" can save your life, I try to leave emergency braking as my last resort.

ChevyFazer said:

Yes it is very easy to lock up and if it does lock up it can cause more problems if your not ready for it, I dont know the exact percentage of how much the front brakes vs the rear brakes are but I would say that in a emergency stop situation it's probably around 75-80 front and 25-20 rear so from 60mph if you can keep the rear from locking up it could probably knock about 5ft off your stopping distance. When you practice do you use your rear, did you use your rear when that happend? If you don't maybe try and practice only braking with the rear so you can get use to how it feels and how much pressure it takes to lock it up, and then once you feel comfortable with the rear add the front in. I've practiced it a good bit and it's easy to do when your just practicing...

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Good call. I think I'll do some rear brake testing and drills. I really haven't done that.

I agree and should myself practice more emergency braking.

Keep in mind that you should try to automatically pick a hole in an emergency situation. It's not just a question of stopping distance but also your ability to head for a hopefully safe opening.
I've witnessed a rider in a very bad situation with cars spinning across lanes in front of him and he was dead on his game. As he was braking his opening was changing and he was adjusting. I was a ways back and thought he was toast but he was really good!

Motogiro said:

I agree and should myself practice more emergency braking.

Keep in mind that you should try to automatically pick a hole in an emergency situation. It's not just a question of stopping distance but also your ability to head for a hopefully safe opening.

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I think that was the most disappointing thing yesterday. there was a slight opening between that car's rear end and the front of the next car (that's right.. a second car was blindly following that one into my path - truly a terrible intersection.) I saw that opening and wanted to shoot for it, but with my rear end locked up I couldn't get there. I was already adjusting brake pressure to free up the rear, but there wasn't really time. I say "I couldn't get there," but that's exactly where I went. I did make it through that hole unscathed.

I've thought more about this and I suspect that a lot of riders (most riders??) would have hit the car. I reacted quickly because I was ready for it. I didn't react perfectly though and that's my point of frustration.

I've said before that my biggest fear when riding is ME. I believe that we as good riders can avoid almost all accidents. It may be the other's persons fault, but it's our responsibility to be ready for it and react accordingly.

A long time back when I road racing I read an interview with the one of the top dogs of the time - Eddie Lawson. They asked him about braking technique on the track, and he said he never used the rear brake. I figured if it that technique worked for the one of the best road racers, it would work for me.
Personally, I still don't use it now on the street. If you have good tires and good traction, there isn't much more you going to get by trying to add rear brakes. It seems that more people just get in trouble by over-using the rear.

My 2 cents.

Ken

I agree, the best way to prepare is to practice frequently, and regularly. You end up training your involuntary reaction more than anything.

I practice panic stops in a parking lot near my house. I try to start slowly, like decelerating from about 35 mph, and work up from there. I generally do not practice full-force stops at speeds greater than 50 or so mph; in my mind it is too dangerous to practice safely (since I practice when no one is around, I don't want to wad the bike (and myself) up when no one would be there to assist me).

I don't use the rear brake at all for panic situations. I focus all of my energy and attention on the front brake and tire. This is from experience in actual panic situations on the road.

I generally use the rear brake when coming to planned stops, like traffic lights and stop signs, to ensure that my brake lamp/light is illuminating properly. I noticed when I switched to stainless steel brake lines up front, that the lever requires more force to activate the brake light. And since I tend to slow down well in advance of where I need to, I want to make sure that my tail light is lighting up for the cars behind me, so I also use the rear brake.

Well there's no question that using the rear brake properly in a panic situation will help to slow you down quicker and in less distance, but if you don't feel comfortable using it for the fear of locking it up and don't want to practice how to use it effectively then it probably is better to not use it at all in these situations, as far as using it on the track, nowadays most riders use it a lot, but mainly to set up the bikes entry angle going into a turn "backing it in" but the track is one thing, while grandma pulling out in front of you is another...

ChevyFazer said:

Well there's no question that using the rear brake properly in a panic situation will help to slow you down quicker and in less distance, but if you don't feel comfortable using it for the fear of locking it up and don't want to practice how to use it effectively then it probably is better to not use it at all in these situations, as far as using it on the track, nowadays most riders use it a lot, but mainly to set up the bikes entry angle going into a turn "backing it in" but the track is one thing, while grandma pulling out in front of you is another...

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This is the whole point -- Practicing the best method. And I think that the best method includes using the rear brake. The rear should be used because it does help shave a number of feet off of the stopping distance.

A few people have said "practice practice practice," but this is meant to be a discussion of the best possible training methods. We all agree that constant practice is required. I don't think that's in dispute. It's a question of making those practice sessions as effective as possible. That's the goal.

Talking about practicing, the number one problem with how people practice is there is no stress inducer in the situation which can help you keep your cool in the real situation. When practicing by my self I go to this one parking lot that I can see a street light across the street and I pretty much just ride in circles until the light changes and use that as my "trigger" not very stressful but it does have a slight element of surprise. I have also been out with my dad years ago and I had him follow to the side of me and told him to blow his horn when he wanted me to stop, a little better but Not giving my self the option of when I want to stop seems to help, but I've been dying to actually try something that me and a friend were talking about as a "trigger" to stop...getting shot with a paint ball gun...I know it sounds crazy but talking about it with him it actually made a lot of sense. For one even though you know it's coming you don't know when, also you have the anticipation of pain which can and does induce stress, which IMO is a huge factor for practicing anything like this.

ChevyFazer said:

Talking about practicing, the number one problem with how people practice is there is no stress inducer in the situation which can help you keep your cool in the real situation. When practicing by my self I go to this one parking lot that I can see a street light across the street and I pretty much just ride in circles until the light changes and use that as my "trigger" not very stressful but it does have a slight element of surprise. I have also been out with my dad years ago and I had him follow to the side of me and told him to blow his horn when he wanted me to stop, a little better but Not giving my self the option of when I want to stop seems to help, but I've been dying to actually try something that me and a friend were talking about as a "trigger" to stop...getting shot with a paint ball gun...I know it sounds crazy but talking about it with him it actually made a lot of sense. For one even though you know it's coming you don't know when, also you have the anticipation of pain which can and does induce stress, which IMO is a huge factor for practicing anything like this.

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:thumbup:
THIS is the kind of thing I'm talking about and it's the whole point of the thread. I really like the idea of traffic light in view as well as the paint ball idea (though there are some logistical issues to overcome there..)

What other random events could be used as signals? Sometimes on a lonely stretch of road I'll set triggers in my mind such as seeing a bird or a specific road irregularity... say a tar snake or pothole. The true value of surprise and stress is still diminished though. It's still better than the basic "ok, I'm going to panic stop in 3, 2, 1.."

I see, we've missed the point of your question.

In the parking lot that I use to practice, there are a number of lines for the parking spots. I generally choose a line that is about 2/3 of the way down the lot, and use that as my panic braking marker.

I accelerate from a very slow roll up to the approximate velocity I am trying to practice braking from, up to the braking line. I try to stay relaxed and keep my eyes up, as if I were riding on the street and scanning the road ahead. When I sense that I am hitting the marker, I screw on the front brakes full-force. I sometimes lift the rear wheel off the ground a little, sometimes not. Occasionally the front wheel will lock up and skid. Both of these are welcome, because then you know you've really hit the absolute limit of available deceleration.

Always practice downshifting at the same time as they teach you in the MSF BRC class - in a real situation, you might need to boogie out of the impact area before the driver(s) behind you erase your awesome evasive maneuver by plowing into your rear tire at speed.

KingY said:

The way i trained my little sister to ride and be good on the brakes was to find a nice open car park (parking lot) i would get her to ride some distance away from me and i would then get her to ride towards me at a steady road speed. i would then raise my arm and examine how long it took her to stop. i would do this a different times on her approach so she never knew when i was going to do it. I actually seen it save her ass when i was out with her once.

I know it cant be done on your own but maybe worth a shot?

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That is the same way the instructors did it at my Rider's Edge course (BRC course at Harley Davidson). I think it is probably the easiest way to practice random emergency stops.