How long do you press?

OK, so most of us know that when we want the bike to go right we press on the right handlebar, but how long do you press for? Do you press just until the bike is at the lean angle you want, do you press until the bike is at the apex or do you to press on the bar the entire way through the corner, and why?

Misti

Once you are at the proper lean angle to negotiate the turn, you can maintain your line simply by maintaining your throttle position (or slightly rolling it on). Once you are leaned in the bike becomes incredibly stable due to centrifugal forces acting on it. Once the input is set, you could almost take your hands off the bar (at least let off all pressure on the bars, and just concentrate on throttle maintenance) and the bike shouldn't alter course...

Misti said:

OK, so most of us know that when we want the bike to go right we press on the right handlebar, but how long do you press for? Do you press just until the bike is at the lean angle you want, do you press until the bike is at the apex or do you to press on the bar the entire way through the corner, and why?

Misti

Click to expand...

For me it depends on how quickly I need to change direction and how much input the bend requires to set the bike up. Sometimes use it when I mess a bend up and need more lean.
I don't think I have ever had to counter steer through an entire bend. I may be doing it wrong.

For me a bigger problem is getting my body position right before I counter steer. Often I end up turning left [for instance] but feeling like my body weight is more to the outside of the bike dirt bike style. This is probably because I am leaving it to late to set the bend up and try to do it all in short order.

Nelly

I press until I taste ashpalt.

Then I pick my bike up and ask all the girls to stop laughing at me.

haha

press just until the bike is at the lean angle you want

Click to expand...

^ That one. Drop into lean angle quickly, then hold position and use throttle for the rest of the corner.

lonesoldier84 said:

I press until I taste ashpalt.

Then I pick my bike up and ask all the girls to stop laughing at me.

haha



^ That one. Drop into lean angle quickly, then hold position and use throttle for the rest of the corner.

Click to expand...

Its been a pleasure to watch your growth and development mate.

Nelly said:

Its been a pleasure to watch your growth and development mate.

Click to expand...

Ah, thanks man! Very nice of you to say so. There has been a LOT of reading, and a LOT of practice so far. The reason I picked up the R1 is that my pace has reached a point it is way too dangerous on public roads and highways for me to progress any further. And my acceptable level of personal risk is a little......higher than it perhaps should be. But I'm changing that gradually.

I have had a total of 6 spills (ballpark number, I lost count.....hit my head too many times haha). Ive gone through 3 helmets, 3 pairs of pants, 3 pairs of gloves, but am still rocking the tattered jacket and Sidi boots. Haha. This season I'll be replacing it finally. It doesn't zip up properly anymore. Same with boots.

So anyway, as for the R1, she'll be getting race plastic and trailered around to the two tracks we have here. Looking forward to the level 2 (of 2) on track performance riding courses we have offered at our local track by a local racer. He's a great teacher and the plan is to take that same level 2 course two or three times this season with a lot of practice on my own as well. By April 2012 I should hopefully get a race license. I can't wait to take part in the novice events/season.

Long live the dream!



P.S. Sometimes I laugh at how I started off. I used to sit WAY back in the seat with arms at full lock almost, butt planted dead centre on bike and throwing the bike through corners dragging pegs and overshooting damn near every corner. The number of "oh ****!" moments I had in my first year.......haha you don't wanna know....

I'll bite, long enough?

lonesoldier84 said:

I press until I taste ashpalt.

Then I pick my bike up and ask all the girls to stop laughing at me.
.

Click to expand...

:rof:

Sorta how I tighten bolts! Push until the head snaps off and then back off a quarter turn!

In the UK this is called "counter steering" and a lot of people can't get their head round the idea of steering left to go right

I don't exactly know how it works, but, my theory for what it's worth is that when you push, say on the right handle bar the front wheel is pushed to the left, effectively acting as a rudder, and steering the bike to the right. It's the only explanation I can think of.

I also think everybody counter steers, even if they don't know they're doing it. The very act of leaning the bike over involves pushing the handlebars down towards the side of the road the same side as the bend you're going round, if you follow?? think about this, do it now in your chair, your near side to the bend hand will go forward.

How much do you push? when you've learned to consciously counter steer and are confident with it, it can be a life-saver. If you've committed to a bend and find yourself "running out of road" push harder, you'll get round if road conditions allow. Remember, it doesn't matter how capable you are, or think you are, the bike is always capable of more, unless your name is Rossi

Watch those chicken strips vanish

Erci said:

:rof:

Sorta how I tighten bolts! Push until the head snaps off and then back off a quarter turn!

Click to expand...

haha, sounds about right. i do the same thing....I've stripped more bolts than a cheap vegas showgirl. I dont even know what that means but it sounded very Dr. Phil-ish. you've got to say it with the country snarl.

arkay said:

In the UK this is called "counter steering" and a lot of people can't get their head round the idea of steering left to go right

I don't exactly know how it works, but, my theory for what it's worth is that when you push, say on the right handle bar the front wheel is pushed to the left, effectively acting as a rudder, and steering the bike to the right. It's the only explanation I can think of.

I also think everybody counter steers, even if they don't know they're doing it. The very act of leaning the bike over involves pushing the handlebars down towards the side of the road the same side as the bend you're going round, if you follow?? think about this, do it now in your chair, your near side to the bend hand will go forward.

How much do you push? when you've learned to consciously counter steer and are confident with it, it can be a life-saver. If you've committed to a bend and find yourself "running out of road" push harder, you'll get round if road conditions allow. Remember, it doesn't matter how capable you are, or think you are, the bike is always capable of more, unless your name is Rossi

Watch those chicken strips vanish

Click to expand...

when you roll a single wheel it stays upright. no matter how many wheels you put in a row, if they are lined up (placed in tandem) the forces involved are the same. The force keeping the wheels (and whatevers connected above them) upright is whats keeping the machine upright.

if you put wheels at four corners then the thing keeping the whole thing upright is different. its just balanced.

turning a tandem wheeled vehicle involves different forces applied to the rubber differently.

at low speeds the thing is turned by turning the way you want to go.....like a vehicle with wheels at the corners. at higher speeds (where the wheels will be kept vertical by their own rotational force) you need different forces acting in different places. these are applied by countersteering.

the application of the force has to do with contact and flex in the wheel or something. i forget. my head hurts. im gonna go lay down.

lonesoldier84 said:

haha, sounds about right. i do the same thing....I've stripped more bolts than a cheap vegas showgirl. I dont even know what that means but it sounded very Dr. Phil-ish. you've got to say it with the country snarl.



when you roll a single wheel it stays upright. no matter how many wheels you put in a row, if they are lined up (placed in tandem) the forces involved are the same. The force keeping the wheels (and whatevers connected above them) upright is whats keeping the machine upright.

if you put wheels at four corners then the thing keeping the whole thing upright is different. its just balanced.

turning a tandem wheeled vehicle involves different forces applied to the rubber differently.

at low speeds the thing is turned by turning the way you want to go.....like a vehicle with wheels at the corners. at higher speeds (where the wheels will be kept vertical by their own rotational force) you need different forces acting in different places. these are applied by countersteering.

the application of the force has to do with contact and flex in the wheel or something. i forget. my head hurts. im gonna go lay down.

Click to expand...

Well that was as clear as mud I'll stick with the "rudder" theory for now

wolfe1down said:

Once you are at the proper lean angle to negotiate the turn, you can maintain your line simply by maintaining your throttle position (or slightly rolling it on). Once you are leaned in the bike becomes incredibly stable due to centrifugal forces acting on it. Once the input is set, you could almost take your hands off the bar (at least let off all pressure on the bars, and just concentrate on throttle maintenance) and the bike shouldn't alter course...

Click to expand...

Absolutely. Once the lean angle is set and provided you are rolling on the throttle you could take your hand off the handlebar and the bike would maintain the line. What a lot of riders do is continue to press throughout the entire corner and that not only uses up extra energy but it makes the bike continue to lean over more and more through the corner. You either end up using more lean angle than necessary or you have to correct by making another steering input (to the other bar) and then correcting again.

There should be ideally ONE steering input per turn

Misti

arkay said:

In the UK this is called "counter steering" and a lot of people can't get their head round the idea of steering left to go right

I don't exactly know how it works, but, my theory for what it's worth is that when you push, say on the right handle bar the front wheel is pushed to the left, effectively acting as a rudder, and steering the bike to the right. It's the only explanation I can think of.

I also think everybody counter steers, even if they don't know they're doing it. The very act of leaning the bike over involves pushing the handlebars down towards the side of the road the same side as the bend you're going round, if you follow?? think about this, do it now in your chair, your near side to the bend hand will go forward.

How much do you push? when you've learned to consciously counter steer and are confident with it, it can be a life-saver. If you've committed to a bend and find yourself "running out of road" push harder, you'll get round if road conditions allow. Remember, it doesn't matter how capable you are, or think you are, the bike is always capable of more, unless your name is Rossi

Watch those chicken strips vanish

Click to expand...

Good explanation of counter-steering and I would agree that everyone countersteers, they just don't consciously realize they are doing it.

I also think that a lot of times the bike is capable of much more than the rider and while sometimes it may work to push harder if a rider is running wide, it can also have a negative effect. If a rider is at or near max lean angle and they are running a bit wide and they try to press harder it will cause the bike to lean more and potentially lowside. I see many riders who are at max lean angle in a turn (whether it be because they are really fast and require all that lean or because they have poor body position and are using more lean angle than they need) and who try to lean it over farther....it never ends well.

What else could you do in this situation? Say you are at max lean angle and are running a bit wide, what could you do to tighten your line WITHOUT using more lean angle?

Misti

Assuming you are already hanging off properly (even if you weren't shifting your weight mid corner at max lean would destabilize the bike a bit).....stop rolling on the throttle (rolling off would slow you down and stand the bike up.....actually widening your line rather than shortening it).

Or fire your Batman Grappling Hook at the nearest tree to your inside!

lonesoldier84 said:

Assuming you are already hanging off properly (even if you weren't shifting your weight mid corner at max lean would destabilize the bike a bit).....stop rolling on the throttle (rolling off would slow you down and stand the bike up.....actually widening your line rather than shortening it).

Or fire your Batman Grappling Hook at the nearest tree to your inside!

Click to expand...

Very light application of the rear brake to wash some speed off.

Misti said:

Good explanation of counter-steering and I would agree that everyone countersteers, they just don't consciously realize they are doing it.

I also think that a lot of times the bike is capable of much more than the rider and while sometimes it may work to push harder if a rider is running wide, it can also have a negative effect. If a rider is at or near max lean angle and they are running a bit wide and they try to press harder it will cause the bike to lean more and potentially lowside. I see many riders who are at max lean angle in a turn (whether it be because they are really fast and require all that lean or because they have poor body position and are using more lean angle than they need) and who try to lean it over farther....it never ends well.

What else could you do in this situation? Say you are at max lean angle and are running a bit wide, what could you do to tighten your line WITHOUT using more lean angle?

Misti

Click to expand...

I want to transfer weight forward to shorten the wheelbase without the lean angle increasing...

Move your body farther forward (head and shoulders) and your butt a little farther inside of the corner with your weight in the balls of your feet.

lonesoldier84 said:

Assuming you are already hanging off properly (even if you weren't shifting your weight mid corner at max lean would destabilize the bike a bit).....stop rolling on the throttle (rolling off would slow you down and stand the bike up.....actually widening your line rather than shortening it).

Or fire your Batman Grappling Hook at the nearest tree to your inside!

Click to expand...

This would work if you had been rolling on a little bit too aggressively or if you were rolling on at the same time that you were leaning the bike. It would also work for a decreasing radius or double apex turn.

Good point as well about how rolling off the throttle would slow you down and make the bike stand up. A lot of riders instinctually do this when they run wide and it actually makes the problem worse.

A Batman Grappling hook would be useful too

Maverick said:

I want to transfer weight forward to shorten the wheelbase without the lean angle increasing...

Move your body farther forward (head and shoulders) and your butt a little farther inside of the corner with your weight in the balls of your feet.

Click to expand...

Maverick said:

I want to transfer weight forward to shorten the wheelbase without the lean angle increasing...

Move your body farther forward (head and shoulders) and your butt a little farther inside of the corner with your weight in the balls of your feet.

Click to expand...

DING DING DING!!! Nicely put. This is exactly what you could do. I'm not sure that you would have time to move your butt but dropping your head and upper body down and into the turn would help transfer some weight forward which would make the bike tighten its line or kind of "hook" into the turn without adding any extra lean angle.

Has anyone had any experience with this? Did you notice the bike tighten the line just by doing this? Why is this a better idea than just leaning the bike over more?

Misti

Well, to clear up the countersteering thing, your wheels once they get spinning fast enough become gyroscopes. I don't know how many people played with gyros, but once it's set on a plane, it doesn't like to change that plane. When you place an outside force on a gyro, it reacts by pushing in the other direction (into the force). The faster the gyro is spinning, the harder the push.

Below 25mph or so, the push isn't hard enough to upset much really. Over that, it kicks back hard enough to cause the bike to upset. The rear wheel begins to kick out in the direction opposite the press, then the bike falls over the other way. Think that the front wheel turns right (cause you pressed left), then the rear wheel kicks to the right. Thankfully, at that point you're also going fast enough for centrifugal force to counteract the fall, and through a combination of input and throttle control you can stay at your lean angle.

That's also why mid-turn corrections applied to the handlebars cause a bit of wobble before it settles in. Once you stop steering input, your gyros... er, wheels, are set in their new plane, and this process starts all over. You actually turn the way the handlebars are turned for a split second (we're talking microseconds here) then it falls the other way. Slowing down lessens the force the gyros can exert faster than the centrifugal force dissipates, so you start to stand back up.

Anyway, hope that helps. I'm not a physics major. I just stayed at a holiday inn... er, read an article on it.