When should you look into the turn?

Many riders look into the turn at the same time as they are turning. Is this correct? Is there a specific time that you should be looking into the turn? Why?

Misti

I was taught to look through the turn. Basically keeping my attention down road. Look where you are going, not where you are at. Late apex unless you know the road and can see through the entire turn on approach. Plan the turn before you arive, pick your apex before turn in and then focus your attention down the road, turn in and go.

My best guess is, you pick up the turn in point visually, once acquired you then look into the turn to your apex while acquiring the exit point*(if there is one) thereby linking the dots to complete a well apex-ed corner.

* assuming your not in a reducing radius corner that requires you keep focus on the vanishing point until you spot your exit point.

Please tell me I got at least a "b" on this one...

My take, that's much, much too late.

The further ahead you can look and see, the better you can connect the dots to make the whole corner smooth.

You should be looking into the turn before you even input the bars. The bike should be the last thing to enter the corner.

Head, torso, bike... in that order.

Pauly_V said:

You should be looking into the turn before you even input the bars. The bike should be the last thing to enter the corner.

Head, torso, bike... in that order.

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Simple and effective statement here Yes, you should be looking into the turn before you even put input into the bars. Next question is WHEN? How do you determine when you should look into the turn (how much before you actually turn the bike)? Will the timing of your "look-in" change depending on the corner or will it stay the same?

Misti

Depends what you mean by "looking into" and "a turn".

You should be looking at the vanishing point, so on a twisty road it is as far ahead as you can see. But if you're talking about a "turn" like a road junction or a roundabout then you should be looking into or through it, as otherwise you won't see anything crossing your path until you're on top of it.

youngy said:

Depends what you mean by "looking into" and "a turn".

You should be looking at the vanishing point, so on a twisty road it is as far ahead as you can see. But if you're talking about a "turn" like a road junction or a roundabout then you should be looking into or through it, as otherwise you won't see anything crossing your path until you're on top of it.

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By looking into I mean exactly that, when do you physically turn your head and look into the upcoming corner. And by turn I mean bend in the road or corner, either on a twisty road or a roundabout, anywhere you need to change the direction of your motorcycle.

There is a point in time that you should be looking to the "vanishing point" but I think there are a few steps that should come before that. If you try to look all the way to the vanishing point, or all the way through the turn/corner before you have actually turned the bike then you may end up feeling lost mid corner and have to move your eyes from the vanishing point back to your current location then to mid corner, then back to the vanishing point again. I think a smooth flow of visual information is key and it starts with looking into the turn BEFORE you actually turn the bike.

What I'm asking about is if there is a specific amount of time or a specific distance before actual turn in that you are supposed to turn your head to look in. ie. 10 feet before turn in or 2 seconds before, or if it depends on each and every corner?

Thoughts?

Misti

Misti said:

By looking into I mean exactly that, when do you physically turn your head and look into the upcoming corner. And by turn I mean bend in the road or corner, either on a twisty road or a roundabout, anywhere you need to change the direction of your motorcycle.

There is a point in time that you should be looking to the "vanishing point" but I think there are a few steps that should come before that. If you try to look all the way to the vanishing point, or all the way through the turn/corner before you have actually turned the bike then you may end up feeling lost mid corner and have to move your eyes from the vanishing point back to your current location then to mid corner, then back to the vanishing point again. I think a smooth flow of visual information is key and it starts with looking into the turn BEFORE you actually turn the bike.

What I'm asking about is if there is a specific amount of time or a specific distance before actual turn in that you are supposed to turn your head to look in. ie. 10 feet before turn in or 2 seconds before, or if it depends on each and every corner?

Thoughts?

Misti

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I doubt it measurable in time or in distance beacuse almost each corner is different with at least different radius.

They descibe it perfectly in twist of the wrist vol 2 dvd. Twist of the Wrist II DVD | Keith Code, California Superbike School (amazon has it aswell)
They call it two step technique
1. estimate a turning point on the road (temp. reference if you don't know the road) - where the corner begins
2. when closing on to that turning point find mid-corner position where you want to clip it on the inside (Apex)
They are mentioning it that you should be looking at that point WITHOUT actually turning your bike in, stay wide do not cut the corner, your're pointing your head-eyes torwards that point.

In the longer corners since you don't see correct apex at the corner entry it's temp. aswell. You're constantly looking to inside of corner searching for the correct Apex. After you establish the Apex you lean on and clip the Apex.

So if you mean looking into the turn as to when you turn your head torwards the inside i would do it before my "first step" remmember that at that point your're looking into the corner not turrning your bike in that same moment, head and eyes lead and the bike follows. Remmember that you do not want to leave your eyes on that specific point, you're establishing it, pointing bike to clip the Apex but you're at that time looking futher to the corner/road, do not lock your eyes on one point!

seb101 said:

I doubt it measurable in time or in distance beacuse almost each corner is different with at least different radius.

They descibe it perfectly in twist of the wrist vol 2 dvd. Twist of the Wrist II DVD | Keith Code, California Superbike School (amazon has it aswell)
They call it two step technique
1. estimate a turning point on the road (temp. reference if you don't know the road) - where the corner begins
2. when closing on to that turning point find mid-corner position where you want to clip it on the inside (Apex)
They are mentioning it that you should be looking at that point WITHOUT actually turning your bike in, stay wide do not cut the corner, your're pointing your head-eyes torwards that point.

In the longer corners since you don't see correct apex at the corner entry it's temp. aswell. You're constantly looking to inside of corner searching for the correct Apex. After you establish the Apex you lean on and clip the Apex.

So if you mean looking into the turn as to when you turn your head torwards the inside i would do it before my "first step" remmember that at that point your're looking into the corner not turrning your bike in that same moment, head and eyes lead and the bike follows. Remmember that you do not want to leave your eyes on that specific point, you're establishing it, pointing bike to clip the Apex but you're at that time looking futher to the corner/road, do not lock your eyes on one point!

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Excellent description and really good that you point out that while your eyes are looking at the apex and your head is turned into the turn, the bike is still traveling straight (you haven't initiated the turn just yet). This is the hardest part of the 2-step technique for people to master because we all want to look and turn at the same time. Separating the two actions, so that you are looking FIRST and then turning the bike is the part that is difficult but once you have that the benefits are many.

The 2-step technique will help you have more consistent lines and will help you be able to carry your corner speed into the turn better (not over brake for the corner) because your sense of speed will be different. By looking into the turn nice and early you will not feel like you are going as fast as if you were looking straight and then looking into the corner last minute.

Now you mention that you don't want to leave your eyes on that specific point but rather establish that point and then move your eyes forward. While I agree that you don't want to allow yourself to target fixate on that specific point (so that you don't see anything else on the road or the track), I think that you might need to leave your eyes on that specific point for a certain amount of time.

How long should you look at your mid point reference point? Again, is there a set amount of time? Should you spot your apex RP and then immediately look through the turn or should you look at your apex RP until you absolutely know that the bike is going to make it there before looking through the turn to the next spot?

Misti

I think they specially do not point it out in twist of the wrist 2 that you should glance for apex any longer then others points not to confuse people, beacuse they do warn about target fixation and what it's causing (usually to early entry and running wide when we're not talking about running it too hot, braking and so on).
For me it's simple as, find correct Apex, when established start proper cornering with leaning and point the bike to Apex, since the bike will now be moving torwards Apex there's no point of still looking at it. When we have our Apex set and are pointing the bike to that point, that's the time when you will look close to the Apex area for longer (area not specific point), beacuse your view will move vertically up, since the bike is now cornering and is gonna clip the Apex and when you fixate on the one specific point your head and eyes will eventually will be pointing down instead of up and through the corner.
When you spot Apex, turn your bike to clip Apex (when turning it it you leave your eyes on that area for moment), when the bike is now leaning and pointed to Apex keep on looking through the turn.

The amount of time we're talking about here is so little that you just have to master it in your head, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it and repeat it until you do it without thinking about it.

seb101 said:

I think they specially do not point it out in twist of the wrist 2 that you should glance for apex any longer then others points not to confuse people, beacuse they do warn about target fixation and what it's causing (usually to early entry and running wide when we're not talking about running it too hot, braking and so on).
For me it's simple as, find correct Apex, when established start proper cornering with leaning and point the bike to Apex, since the bike will now be moving torwards Apex there's no point of still looking at it. When we have our Apex set and are pointing the bike to that point, that's the time when you will look close to the Apex area for longer (area not specific point), beacuse your view will move vertically up, since the bike is now cornering and is gonna clip the Apex and when you fixate on the one specific point your head and eyes will eventually will be pointing down instead of up and through the corner.
When you spot Apex, turn your bike to clip Apex (when turning it it you leave your eyes on that area for moment), when the bike is now leaning and pointed to Apex keep on looking through the turn.

The amount of time we're talking about here is so little that you just have to master it in your head, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it and repeat it until you do it without thinking about it.

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I think you answered it in the above post in that you say you look at the apex and then once the bike starts to go there you look up and at your next point. I'll simplify it a little bit by saying look at your apex RP until you are certain you are going to get there and then look up.

It is almost like connecting the dots, spot the turn in point, spot the apex, spot the next point and so on. A lot of riders do this very mechanically and then as they get better and better it begins to smooth out so that instead of actually saying the steps in their heads, 1,2, 3 they just move through the motions and have a continual flow of info.

It's like dancing in a way, when you start you are concentrating on each step and as you get better and better it becomes less about each step and more about the actual FLOW.

What might happen if someone tried to look all the way through the turn without focusing on an apex reference point?

Misti

lol it's getting harder to explain it then to see it when watching the video.
The idea with the dots is no a bad idea and i guess it could work, but then don't forget which dot meant what
The flow is the key to being quick and precise but before you get there you have to master it. This summer when we're with friends in corsica with enormous number or corners i was able to get it in the "flow" motion, corner after corner.. the bike itself feels and acts much better and i was way more confident. I don't ride that much to actually master it to a point where i get on the bike and just get it going from start, hopefull in the oncoming years

I guess it would depend from the person. He might be okay when doing that on relativly low speed but he won't do it right, beacuse when you don't set the Apex that you want to clip you might aswell go through the corner like on rails (paraller to the line in the center of the road), you will be able to make it like that but it won't be the quickest and the safest way.

seb101 said:

lol it's getting harder to explain it then to see it when watching the video.
The idea with the dots is no a bad idea and i guess it could work, but then don't forget which dot meant what
The flow is the key to being quick and precise but before you get there you have to master it. This summer when we're with friends in corsica with enormous number or corners i was able to get it in the "flow" motion, corner after corner.. the bike itself feels and acts much better and i was way more confident. I don't ride that much to actually master it to a point where i get on the bike and just get it going from start, hopefull in the oncoming years

I guess it would depend from the person. He might be okay when doing that on relativly low speed but he won't do it right, beacuse when you don't set the Apex that you want to clip you might aswell go through the corner like on rails (paraller to the line in the center of the road), you will be able to make it like that but it won't be the quickest and the safest way.

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It is all about finding a flow but I think you need to have the points first and then put it all together and that is what will help you get a nice, continuous flow

I think you kind of nailed it when you said that if a person tries to look all the way through the turn without focussing on the apex, they may just go through the middle of the turn (missing the apex completely) and it may not be the safest way through.

I'd say that people end up feeling lost in the middle of the corner sometimes. They are trying to see all the way through to the exit but then then end up losing sight of where they are in the middle of the turn and they sometimes have to move their vision back to the middle of the turn and then forward again. It makes more sense to look to the apex until you know you are going to get there and then look up the track or road to the next point that you want to get too.

The better you are able to put all your points together, the faster, safer and more precise your riding will be and the better able you will be to find the flow.

Cheers!

Misti