Frustration with riders refusing to accept proper technique

One of my good friends refuses to accept countersteering. It's so frustrating. I've shown him a MSF beginner riding manual which states "to go left, press the left handle bar." I've explained some of the basic physics of it. I've actually shown him. He, his wife, and son and son still refuse to accept countersteering.

He says he doesn't do that at all and just leans. He thinks because he's rode on and off for +/- 35 years he knows it all. He's also a cruiser rider. He's also done no research whatsoever on how to ride.

I'm about to give up trying to get him to see the light. He's a danger to himself if he is ever placed in a situation where he has to swerve to avoid danger or comes into a turn too fast. When I am behind him I ride at distance that I can safely stop if something were to happen.

End Rant.

Sometimes, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Don't worry, just do your own thing.

Ride safe and make sure he gears up

:thumbup:

Ask him to go through some twisties no handed and steer just by leaning. He'll find out.

It's one of those things where he will never concede. The best way to handle it is to only encourage and perhaps to compliment him on his ability to steer -- even without countersteering. Then wait and he may figure it out on his own and come back and say "ah ha!".

I bet he's actually countersteering and doesn't even realize it. That's how I rode my cruiser for a long time (I think they call it "lazy" steering; not to be pejorative but to describe that it's an easy going way to steer) but when I started riding sport bikes and learned to flick the bike for quick steering, I learned how countersteering really makes a difference. So, now I apply it to my cruiser riding and now cruiser riding is much more fun.

Dennis

Counter steering is a natural course of events when you ride a bike. He's messing with your head. :rof:
If he's steering the bike strictly by leaning his weight then you should be able to ask him to go around bends with no hand on the bars at all. He won't do it in comfort because he's automatically counter steering....

He doesn't gear up. Thinks he's a good rider and doesn't need it. He is definitely countersteering without knowing it. It's really frustrating because it's such a good friend.

Video him riding straight towards you and have him veer left or right. Play back the tape for him and slo-mo the actual turn. He will see the wheel turn slightly opposite of the eventual turn. That should convince him. No way a two wheeled vehicle can turn above a few mph without counter steering.

Tim

Mount a small camera on the tank, mark with duct tape any available spot next to the bars, and let him explain why his bars went one direction while his bike went the other... Seriously, ask him to try and see how counter-steering works. If he's willing to try it, ask him to put one hand on tank and use only one hand to lean right and left while simply pushing/pulling the bars. Basic stuff.

If he's insisting that you (and the rest of the universe) can't possibly know something more than him, for whatever reason, let him be. Hard-headed people annoy me and I tend to avoid them.

Unfortunately I don't own a video camera. I googled "how to steer a motorcycle." The first 6 six pages (the limit of my reading) of results were all counter steering. I told his son to check that. There are actually some really good scientific articles regarding the subject.

That's my last attempt. At least I know that I am prepared for the worst out there.

He's been on cruisers his entire life - that explains a lot, actually... Countersteering becomes brutally apparent on a sportbike - to make a tight turn, you *have* to countersteer. Many cruisers riders never achieve the lean angles of the average sportbike rider.

However, I must admit, countersteering wasn't very apparent in the MSF - I was on a Yamaha YF200, and we we going just over 10mph in a parking lot, right at the point where the bike transitions from regular steering to counter steering. In this situation, because the bike was so darn light, I just leaned and it did what I wanted it to do. This might be where his *incorrect* perception stems from...

The MSF course I took made counter steering one of the first lessons. They demonstrated by having us sit on the bike (not running or moving) and turn the handlebars left and right. You feel the bike try to lean in the opposite direction. Maybe have him try that?

Tell him to try this.

The front wheel orientation in the opposite direction can be verified by simply going through a water puddle at slow speed and then start turning. Examination of the tire trails then shows the front wheel had to go in the opposite direction to start turning in the intended direction.

I always heard, but never really thought about the countersteering thing, I just rode, and all was right with the world. Until............. I took the MSF class and thought about it some more.

I made some tests by steering with only one hand on the handlebars. This made it clear for me, and was easier to discern what is going on.

I discovered something interesting. I have always pulled on the opposite side more than push in the direction of steering. Hmmmmmmmmm. It was difficult for me to tell what I was doing with both hands on the bars, but single handed was easy to tell.

I also tried one handed steering on my bicycle, and the effects were even easier to feel than on the motorcycle. Pulling felt very unstable, but pushing was stable, especially in a longer turns, but not so much when starting to steer.

Now I am concentrating on pushing in the direction of steering rather than pulling on the opposite side, but after doing it wrong, it is taking me a while to change my technique. I think it is worth the effort to improve smoothness and stability. Not really a big deal to me, just durring riding I try to concentarte on this more than before. It should become natural with practice.

And no, I keep both hands on the bars when riding. Sorry, I'm not a stunt rider.

It is not worth arguing about with your riding buddy, unless you enjoy the banter. I think many (most???) people can ride and just do what is natural, and be perfectly happy riding without really thinking about countersteering.

Thanks MSF.
Happy Riding.

I am new to all this riding technique since I purchased my FZ6 and I would have to say that the counter steering concepts was confusing at first. The more I study the concept the more I can see that much of it happens without any cognitive thought that I am counter steering. This may be your friend's issue too. If you are trying for the best line into a turn you would most likely counter steer to get that line. I'm going to try and think through the turn to see if I can actually see myself counter steering next time I ride.

I found this blurb at - Countersteering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While this appears to be a complex sequence of motions, it is in fact known unconsciously by every child who rides a bicycle. The entire sequence goes largely unnoticed by most riders, which is why some assert that they don't do it.

Interesting discussion

I'm coming in late but I sent some thanks out on this thread. I don't care what is perceived. No way you steer a bike by leaning. At least for many miles. Try it and see how far you get!

Maybe your friend has found a nice way to torque you up by arguing about something like this. There is just no way that someone is so ignorant to the fact that if you press right you go right and vice versa.

Have him watch this one. If he still thinks it's bullsht perhaps the world is also flat and the moon is made of cheese. Personally, I think he just likes to wind you up.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI]YouTube - Counter Steering - How to Ride a Motorbike - Part 3[/ame]

J

Personally, the countersteering theory didn't really sink in until I laid down on the tank and swerved back and forth accross my lane a few times without shifting my weight at all. There's no better illustration that that countersteering is for real.

Twist of the Wrist 2 DVD. Buy it from amazon or whatever. You will learn tons and Keith Code himself will ****-kick your friend with slow-motion and mechanical breakdowns of it all.

Here is the bit that is for your friend. It is called a No-BS Bike. (body steering and B.S.) there are a second pair of handlebars mounted on the top. no amount of shifting or leaning or weight transfer of any kind moves the bike.

the bike will only turn when the rider uses the main handlebars which are actually connected to the front tire.

when leaning into a corner the way ur friend describes he is countersteering. he just doesnt think he is. soon as he realizes this he will experience a number of benefits including:

1) increased confidence based on increased knowledge

2) a better ability to quickly put the bike into a corner and not gradually lean into it. this will give him a safer entry into corners because he can dive into the corners later and have better vision (on the street....on the track he will just get faster)

3) women will find him more attractive

here is the video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644]YouTube - Keith Code's No BS Bike[/ame]

additionally, the movement you get from just moving your body weight around is because your front wheel IS countersteering, just on its own because you are applying more pressure to the inside edge of the rubber.

When you lean with your body, you are inducing countersteering in the handlebar which is free to move.

Click to expand...

Cloned said:

The MSF course I took made counter steering one of the first lessons. They demonstrated by having us sit on the bike (not running or moving) and turn the handlebars left and right. You feel the bike try to lean in the opposite direction. Maybe have him try that?

Click to expand...

This is exactly what he should try. He could do it on any bike, and the bike doesn't even have to be running.