Has Brown sold us out?

Nelly · Dec 13, 2007

So Mr Brown has gone to sign the new EU treaty. Many people beleive that it is actually a constitution?
We were all promised a reforendom to vote on the EU issue. Particularly the constitution. Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Author of the European Constitution has made it public. That it is essentially a constitution.

I am not a political animal so do not hold all the answers to all the arguments (well none actually lol). I do however loss a huge amount of my annual income to taxes ect.
So whats the crack, have we been lied to and mislead, are we trying to create a backdoor United states of Europe or is this simply a treaty?

What does it all mean to the average Joe? Are we looking at the birth of a new global super power? Are we going to be able to maintain our excellent links with the USA?

DrBart2 · Dec 13, 2007

If it is developing into something like the United States of America, you and your countrymen probably won't be very happy when people from the other "states" (countries) start telling you what you can and can't do in your own country. It is that way here in the US. When people from New York and or California start telling Texans what they can or can't do, just because that is what they do in their states, Texans get pretty angry. And it is the same the other way around. I am sure New York and California don't appreciate Texans sticking their noses in their business either. We have Federal laws that pertain to all states. But, we also have State laws that pertain to that state only. The problem arises when you have an individual or a group (like PETA) who think that everyone should abide by what they think is right, and they want to control what happens in other states even though they don't live and work there. I could give many examples but I don't want to go on too much.
Becoming a part of the EU will make the EU much more of a world force politically and economically. But, each country will lose some independence and self control. It will be hard to accept when your country has always been independent and hasn't had to answer to anyone else. It WILL be tough to adjust to. Good luck with it! Just think, soon the Italians will pass a law that requires every one in GB to ride scooters only!!!! LOL

Nelly · Dec 13, 2007

Hi Mate,
I have family in Texas, Austin and Hilsboro. I was under the impression that Texas was a Republic, similar to Southern Ireland? I have always found your law system fascinating and confusing. Yep federal laws I can get my head around no problem, felonies ect. If this was to transpire Europe wide I just cant see it logistically being workable. There will have to be federal laws, but culturally we are all so different. I was under the impression that the FZ6 was a top seller in Italy? Awaiting confirmation.
IMO England is an Island nation; the sea has protected us and kept us strong. The channel tunnel is great. It would have been better going the other way to Ireland as the ferries are generally crap.
We are meant to operate under a common market. That’s crap though, other countries can fish off our coasts and not be bound by UK quotas.
Do I want to lose what is left of my English heritage, no. Do I want a single currency, bugger off. This is just an excuse to round the price of consumer items up. My point is, it all starts with a treaty and all ends in tears as we are stripped off our nationalism. Best case scenario is we win the soccer world cup for ever in a day. As we will not enter an English side but, a carefully selected side from the new united states of Europe lol.

shaggystyle · Dec 13, 2007

From my understanding it's not a constituion in the sense of granting/denying powers with respect to the public. The EU Treaty is intended to update the original constitution agreed upon by the member countries. The intention of the new "constitution" is to set more functional methods/procedures for how the union conducts business. A couple of big changes that have been in the news are the addition of a "Minister of Foreign Policy" and changing how the EU President is selected. Currently the position rotates between the member countries every two years, the new president will be elected to a 2.5 year term by the members. Most of the other changes affect trade and dispute/conflict resolution. As to how Britain will fair in this, i think you guys are going to see minimal changes. From what I had been reading, Brown was actually able to defuse and remove measures that would have allowed the EU "unreasonable power" when dealing with "internal affairs" or some similar phrasing. So don't worry about becoming "the other U.S.", the EU isn't there.....yet. Globalization is coming, or already here depending on who you ask.

Of course, this opinion should be weighted with the fact that it's coming from a non-brit hippy seperated from the action by a lot of water.....might need more than a grain of salt for that:Flip:

grommit · Dec 13, 2007

The reason we do not get a vote is because we would vote against it.

Only recently have they given up try to make us sell everything in Metric. I want a Pint of beer not a 500ml, twats.

They told us that our chocolate was not chocolate. We eat more chocolate than anybody else in the EU, F.O. I say

I do not understand how this government got a third term. Yes two terms fine, we needed a change. They say power corrupts, and it does.

Brown is two faced and is clinging to power, and he knows that we know.

Rant over :rant:

reiobard · Dec 13, 2007

perryn said:
Hi Mate,
I have family in Texas, Austin and Hilsboro. I was under the impression that Texas was a Republic, similar to Southern Ireland?

Nope, Texas is a state just like every other state, they just like to think of themselves as a self governing entity.

Cloggy · Dec 13, 2007

I don't know where to start so lets go:

England has over the years recieved the bulk amount of EU funding, admitedly it has gone to run down places and probably not to your neck of the woods. For many years Uk got sooo much back because they promised to join the euro. In recent years the balance has been changed because of the UK's refusal to join.

In the meantime all the other Euro states have born the brunt of converting to the euro, especially the richer ones like France and Germany our inflation was rediculous for a matter of months. This was the same for all the other member states. The UK can join this stable monetary system any time they want.

Pre Euro the Netherlands had one of the highest standards of living in all europe, in recent years many standards have had to be lowered so we can accomodate the poorer states (getting rid of many state funded allowances).

The Netherlands pays the most PER PERSON into the EU (OK they are a small country) but , the uk is somewhere in the middle.

During the last negotiations the larger countries (including the UK) tried to stop the smaller ones (including the Netherlands) of having a vote in important matters. Imagine paying the most into a system where you have NO say in what's to be done with your money. The funny thing was the UK thought the Dutch were supporting THEM by voting against the constitution last time, whilst it was more a matter of disgust toward the bigger countries.

Everybody in the UK always rants on about how more expensive lamb and butter have become since the EU this is rightly true but many other things have become relatively cheaper.

As for the metric system in England, when I was in school I learned 90% metric and if I'm not mistaken there was no inches or feet in my O Levels. Now I am almost 40 and I went through school 24 years ago, how bloody long does it take to change.

I thoroughly agree the EU is not fair, but when the uk gets most of the benefits and still complains well that just takes the biscuit.

:rant: Rant over

Nelly · Dec 13, 2007

Yes mate, I have been reading the same spoon fed media clap trap releases to. It still doesn’t get away from the fact that people are divided. I listened to a multi-party debate yesterday. The only thing all the parties could agree on was. The parties present could not agree on the difference between this treaty and the constitution. So as soon as you have space in your hippie commune, I'll bring the salt lol:ban::Flip:

jimcisme · Dec 13, 2007

Supposedly when we joined the union we retained the right to secede any time we like...lol

DrBart2 · Dec 13, 2007

reiobard said:
Nope, Texas is a state just like every other state, they just like to think of themselves as a self governing entity.

Texas was a republic at one time many, many, moons ago. Then they chose to become a part of the United States. At this time I would be willing to bet that at least half of the population of Texas was not born in Texas. People move around a lot here in the US. I have lived most of my life here in Texas, but I was born in Alaska. I have lived in eight different states. I admit that I am very ignorant on the structure of the EU. If the EU can keep its influence on economy and trade, then I expect it to be a very powerful world influence. If the EU officials try to make it something more where they interfere in a countries internal affairs, then I would expect trouble. On the surface (at least from my ignorant, distant perspective) the EU looks like it would be beneficial to all the member countries.
Oh, and I was joking about the scooters and Italy. They make some very good racing bikes of course!:Flash:

Nelly · Dec 13, 2007

grommit said:
The reason we do not get a vote is because we would vote against it.

Only recently have they given up try to make us sell everything in Metric. I want a Pint of beer not a 500ml, twats.

They told us that our chocolate was not chocolate. We eat more chocolate than anybody else in the EU, F.O. I say

I do not understand how this government got a third term. Yes two terms fine, we needed a change. They say power corrupts, and it does.

Brown is two faced and is clinging to power, and he knows that we know.

Rant over :rant:

Thats what I admire about you Grommit, your refined manner LOL.
To think He's not even elected. WTF is that about.

Nelly · Dec 13, 2007

Pseudo Cloggy said:
I don't know where to start so lets go:

England has over the years recieved the bulk amount of EU funding, admitedly it has gone to run down places and probably not to your neck of the woods. For many years Uk got sooo much back because they promised to join the euro. In recent years the balance has been changed because of the UK's refusal to join.

In the meantime all the other Euro states have born the brunt of converting to the euro, especially the richer ones like France and Germany our inflation was rediculous for a matter of months. This was the same for all the other member states. The UK can join this stable monetary system any time they want.

Pre Euro the Netherlands had one of the highest standards of living in all europe, in recent years many standards have had to be lowered so we can accomodate the poorer states (getting rid of many state funded allowances).

The Netherlands pays the most PER PERSON into the EU (OK they are a small country) but , the uk is somewhere in the middle.

During the last negotiations the larger countries (including the UK) tried to stop the smaller ones (including the Netherlands) of having a vote in important matters. Imagine paying the most into a system where you have NO say in what's to be done with your money. The funny thing was the UK thought the Dutch were supporting THEM by voting against the constitution last time, whilst it was more a matter of disgust toward the bigger countries.

Everybody in the UK always rants on about how more expensive lamb and butter have become since the EU this is rightly true but many other things have become relatively cheaper.

As for the metric system in England, when I was in school I learned 90% metric and if I'm not mistaken there was no inches or feet in my O Levels. Now I am almost 40 and I went through school 24 years ago, how bloody long does it take to change.

I thoroughly agree the EU is not fair, but when the uk gets most of the benefits and still complains well that just takes the biscuit.

:rant: Rant over

As I stated I'm not a political animal, you don't really sell the advantages of joining. Lower standard of living, any one and their dog able to use health, social services ect. The UK may of in the past had an over proportional amount of EU revenue. This I feel has been more than re-payed when we could not export any dairy, meat or even fish in our own waters. The point I am trying to get to is this. Is what is the real difference between the treaty and the constitution? Have we, us I been mislead with a re-naming of a product to avoid the electrol.
If I'm also not mistaken didn't the Neatherlands fail to unanimously vote for becomming part of the Euro in the first round. You mention that this was more in disgust at the larger countries. Eithere way you were dammed if you did and dammed if you didn't.
As for imperial and metric. You are quite right imperial didn't appear in the O level. Most people now actually work in metric, particularly in health care. Whats wrong with knowing two systems?

Tax Smax, we can all raise arguments on who is taxed the most on paper. In the UK we are stealth taxed to death. 75% on fuel 20% domestic fuel, 40%+ on alcohol. You are right Cloggy you get shafted 56% of your salaries for combined tax and social. The taxation is written up to look good on paper for the voters. My pay rise this year for instance was 2.9% (Inflation is running at 5%To be paid in two instalments). On top of that the Nursing registration fees went up by 15%. So the argument about tax if we go that way needs to be a lot more broader. Who has the highest un-employment and is paying for sponging ****ers who won't get of their arses.
On paper anyway we all need to move to luxemborg lol.

Neil

Neil

grommit · Dec 13, 2007

I like this thread

I have an idea lets make English the standard language for the EU.

anot · Dec 13, 2007

grommit said:
I like this thread

I have an idea lets make English the standard language for the EU.

Well if you fully adopt the superior metric system, then the rest of us could consider the language thing... however I think some would dislike the idea!

And you should also start driving on the correct side of the road!

Cloggy · Dec 13, 2007

grommit said:
I like this thread

I have an idea lets make English the standard language for the EU.

Well I'm all for that even though I don't think they deserve it (being the last to agree/disagree to anything to do with europe).
There is only one floor to this plan, the UK looses its trump card. Presently the UK is seen as a middleman between Europe and US, and earn very well on it too. If everyone in europe speaks english, they will cut out the middlemen.

Cloggy · Dec 13, 2007

anot said:
Well if you fully adopt the superior metric system, then the rest of us could consider the language thing

Totally in agreement :thumbup:

wrightme43 · Dec 13, 2007

But Kentucky is a Commonwealth not a state.

Cloggy · Dec 13, 2007

perryn said:
As I stated I'm not a political animal, you don't really sell the advantages of joining. Lower standard of living, Neil

For example the UK got a higher minimum wage, the Dutch had to bring theirs down.

perryn said:
any one and their dog able to use health, social services ect.Neil

The EU have simplified this the E111, if you aint got it tough

perryn said:
The UK may of in the past had an over proportional amount of EU revenue. This I feel has been more than re-payed when we could not export any dairy, meat or even fish in our own waters.Neil

I can assure the Dutch lost out more on the dairy and meat issue as cows and dairy are their main trade.

perryn said:
The point I am trying to get to is this. Is what is the real difference between the treaty and the constitution? Have we, us I been mislead with a re-naming of a product to avoid the electrol.
If I'm also not mistaken didn't the Neatherlands fail to unanimously vote for becomming part of the Euro in the first round. You mention that this was more in disgust at the larger countries. Eithere way you were dammed if you did and dammed if you didn't.Neil

The Dutch were the first country to vote against the constitution as they would loose the little influence they already had

perryn said:
As for imperial and metric. You are quite right imperial didn't appear in the O level. Most people now actually work in metric, particularly in health care. Whats wrong with knowing two systems?Neil

Nothing is wrong with it but adopt one standard for use in your country, and don't keep two systems running parallel.

perryn said:
Tax Smax, we can all raise arguments on who is taxed the most on paper. In the UK we are stealth taxed to death. 75% on fuel 20% domestic fuel, 40%+ on alcohol. You are right Cloggy you get shafted 56% of your salaries for combined tax and social. The taxation is written up to look good on paper for the voters. My pay rise this year for instance was 2.9% (Inflation is running at 5%To be paid in two instalments). On top of that the Nursing registration fees went up by 15%. So the argument about tax if we go that way needs to be a lot more broader. Who has the highest un-employment and is paying for sponging ****ers who won't get of their arses.Neil

The Netherlands taxes are much higher than UK

perryn said:
On paper anyway we all need to move to luxemborg lol. Neil

I agree with you on that one. I went on a motorbike weekend there in june, brilliant motorbike roads. Can't wait to go back. :thumbup:

DrBart2 · Dec 13, 2007

grommit said:
I like this thread

I have an idea lets make English the standard language for the EU.

LOL, we can't even do that here in the US! I have to admit that things would be easier if the world had a standard measurement system. I had an English mate visit me a few months ago and we were racing go carts. He kept beating me by just a bit, so I decided that he must weigh less than me ( I couldn't accept that he may just be a better driver than I), so I asked him how much he weighed. I weigh about 160 pounds, but his answer threw me a bit. He said he weighed about 12 stones. What?????? What the he** is a stone? We have all kinds of stones here in Texas. Some weigh a few ounces and some weigh several tons! I learned something new that day. Now my son and I mess with the minds of our Texas friends by giving our weight in stones. LOL:rockon:

trailblazer87 · Dec 13, 2007

Stones, lbs, kilo's... whatever, though I did do an online conversion and found out I am 1.074 Smoots tall:thumbup:

Though I gotta say that there is something wrong with not being able to order a pint.

As for the whole EU thing, all I can say is, don't let Turkey drag you all down. If all else fails you can try the American model and have an armed uprising against the overseas government:Flip:

Wait a minute, just noticed the 40% tax on alchohol, maybe it is time for revolution!

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